Daniel 9:24-27: When?

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Whether it does or not we still know an A of D is yet to come since after the A of D of which Jesus spoke, He returns. He has not yet returned and AD 70 is long past. 

 

Since we have already agreed that "an A of D is yet to come," why act like we haven't?

The issue is whether or not the details of Dan. 9:27 prophesies about it. So please don't waste my time going around in circles.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

True; but it is their leader/commander that caused them to do it.

Nope. The Syrian troops of X Fretensis defied the orders of Titus. 

The people that destroyed the Temple were Syrian conscripts. The coming prince is Syrian, not Roman.

The "leader, the one coming in" was Vespasian, who set the overall Roman policy, which brought about the destruction of temple and city.

To say that someone from the devastated county of Syria will do the conquest of 11:40's King of the North is simply ludicrous.

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, Uriah said:

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

the Romans, who were offering pagan sacrifices in the Tower of Antonia

Hi Will, could you show the source of this? Even though it NOT, "in the Holy Place" as Jesus taught.

Under Titus, in early July the Romans captured the fortress-tower of Antonia on the northwest כְּנַף/corner of the Temple Mount. War V:5:8; VI:1:7 It provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage, which led “as far as the corner of the inner court of the Temple.” VI:1:8 This tower was elevated עַל/above/over the Temple, which allowed the Romans to look down upon the Temple and its courts. VI:1:5; 2:5

The “abominations of a destroyer” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews and then the Romans setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters across from the Roman-occupied Antonia. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae), to which sacrifices were offered, into the Antonia Tower, and then into the Temple precincts. VI:1:7; 6:1 They were called Aquilae because of the eagle perched on top of them, a symbol of Jupiter.

VI:Endnote 24 …Tertullian truly says in his Apologetic…that the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods.

The destruction by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the destruction of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. Thus Titus fulfilled the prophecy of “abominations/idolatry of a destroyer.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

I highly recommend that you and everyone else seriously interested in these things read the whole article.

 

[WilliamL]

God...allotted 40 years to test whether the Jewish people, and especially their religious leaders, would accept or reject Christ’s New Covenant. After those 40 years were fulfilled, the rebels against the New Covenant had their holy city and Temple destroyed, which effectively ended many mandated practices of the Old Covenant. That covenant required both a Temple and a place to gather for the yearly festivals of the Law. Both places were destroyed, and the Temple was never rebuilt.

Jesus prophesied just such a “desolation” for the city, people, and Temple of His day, saying that these were “the things having been written.” Luke 21:22; “the things” referring to the events of verses 6 and 20-21. Only one Old Testament “written” prophecy fulfills this statement, and that is the passage of Daniel 9:24-27. (Micah 3:12 was not fulfilled until the aftermath of the Bar Kokhba War, which ended in 135 A.D.) In particular, Jesus singled out the corrupted and rebellious religious leaders of his day – ha-poshim/the apostates (Dan. 8:23) – whose pesha would soon be “utterly restrained” (9:24):

Matthew 23:29 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! … 31 …you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. … 35 …upon you shall come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth… 36 Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem… 38 Behold, your house [that is, the Temple] is left to you desolate.”

In saying these words, Jesus was in effect both witnessing to and re-decreeing the “decreed desolations” of Daniel 9:26b and 27, and prophesying that those desolations would be fulfilled during the generation of the first century A.D. Which they were.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

[Retrobyter]

On 3/7/2023 at 12:23 PM, Selah7 said:

Thanks for the reply, brother, but it seems we’ll just have to disagree regarding these things in the book of Daniel because I believe that the events in chapters 7 through 12 were specifically written for the latter days—the time of the end—today.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

- Daniel 12 (KJV)

Shalom, Selah7.

You're not wrong about Daniel 12. However, Daniel 11 is NOT about the future! It is a series of snapshots from the PAST! Look how the chapter starts:

Daniel 11:1-13 (KJV)

1 "Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. 2 And now will I shew thee the truth. [Darius II, 424-404 B.C.]

"Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. [Artaxerxes II, 404-358 B.C.; Artaxerxes III, 358-338 B.C.; Artaxerxes IV, 338-336 B.C.; Darius III, 336-330 B.C.]

3 "And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. [Alexander III the Great, 336-323 B.C.] 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

"After much fighting and jockeying for position, Alexander's empire was divided into four major portions by 301 BCE: (1) Cassander ruled over Greece, (2) Lysimachus ruled in Asia Minor, (3) Seleucus I Nicator ruled in Babylon and Persia, and (4) Ptolemy I Soter ruled over the Holy Land and Egypt." - HereALittleThereALittle.net - Daniel 11

[King of the south, Egypt = Ptolemy I Soter (322-301 B.C.);
king of the east (north of Israel), Syria, Persia et al. = Seleucus I Nicator (305-281 B.C.);
king of the north, Pergamum (Asia Minor, modern Turkey) = Attalus I (241-197 B.C.);
king of the west, Macedonia (Greece) = Antigonus II (277-239 B.C.).]

5 "And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes [Lysimachus]; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion. 6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: [In 249 BCE, king of the South Ptolemy II Philadelphus sent his daughter Berenice to king of the North Antiochus II Theos.] but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times. 7 But out of a branch of her roots shall one [Ptolemy III Euergetes, the eldest son of Ptolemy II and brother of Berenice] stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail: 8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north. 9 So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land.

10 "But his sons [sons of Seleucus II were Seleucus III Ceraunos ("Thunder") and Antiochus III (the Great)] shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one [219-218 BCE, Antiochus III] shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress. 11 And the king of the south [Ptolemy IV Philopater] shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north [Antiochus III]: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand. 12 And when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened by it. 13 For the king of the north [After the death of Ptolemy IV in 204 BCE, Antiochus III] shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches."

So, in just these few verses, we've gone from 404 B.C. to 204 B.C.

The next few verses travel no faster through time, speaking of the ambitions and exploits of Antiochus III, and finally his death:

Daniel 11:14-19 (KJV)

14 "And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall. 15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand. 16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed. 17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him. 18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him. 19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found."

Verse 20 talks about the brief reign of Antiochus III's eldest son, Seleucus IV Philopater.

Daniel 11:20 (KJV)

20 "Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle."

Then, beginning in verse 21 and lasting through verse 34 are all about Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" who raised an altar to Zeus in the Temple and sacrificed a pig upon the altar to Zeus - the "abomination of desolation." This takes us to the time of the Hasmodeans, who ruled from 168 to 37 B.C. and verse 35 is about their short rule. After them, why would the focus of all this suddenly jump to the distant future?!

It didn't. Instead, verses 36 to 39 talk about HEROD THE GREAT! Then, there is a brief look at the Romans versus the Egyptians in the battle that took place on Israeli soil in verse 40, and this involved the different sides to which Herod aligned himself. 

Then, in verses 41 to 45, we're back to talking about Herod the Great. Then, the first phrase of Daniel 12:1 is ...

Daniel 12:1 (KJV)

1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

This phrase, "at that time" (in Hebrew, "וּבָעֵ֣ת" "uVaa`eet") is a particular phrase that usually talks about the coming of the Messiah, as in Jeremiah 33:15 and Joel 3:1 and in Zephaniah 3:20.

So, Daniel 12:1-3 begins with the coming of the Messiah and the rise of Micha'eel, followed by the Great Tribulation that BEGAN in the first Century and continues through today! It will continue, until the resurrection, as glimpsed in verse 2.

Then, in verse 4, Daniel is told to close the book and seal it. 

Daniel 12:2-4 (KJV)

2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 

4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

[WilliamL]

41 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

there is a brief look at the Romans versus the Egyptians in the battle that took place on Israeli soil in verse 40, and this involved the different sides to which Herod aligned himself. 

Then, in verses 41 to 45, we're back to talking about Herod the Great

Verse 40 begins "At the time of the end..." Which does not at all apply to Herod's days, but to ours. And he certainly never invaded and conquered Egypt per verses 42-43.

[Retrobyter]

15 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Verse 40 begins "At the time of the end..." Which does not at all apply to Herod's days, but to ours. And he certainly never invaded and conquered Egypt per verses 42-43.

Shalom, WilliamL.

Well, it all depends on WHICH "time of the end" we're talking about!

HereALittleThereALittle.net on Daniel 11 says ALL this about verse 40:

"Remember, this prophecy is not primarily concerned with Syria, Egypt, Rome or any other foreign power, but with the fate of Daniel's people, the Jews. Verses 40-43 are a parenthetical insert describing the last major battle over the land of Israel before the Messiah appeared.

"For the final time in this prophecy, we see the king of the South and the king of the North engage one another in battle. Here, the king of the South is Mark Antony and his ally Cleopatra (the last monarch to occupy the Egyptian throne). The king of the North is Octavius, who as the official representative of Rome, was ruler of the former Syrian empire of the Seleucids.

"Antony and Octavius made a pact with a third party (Marcus Aemilius Lepidus) to rule Rome after the assassination of Julius Caesar in 44 BCE. In the civil war that followed Caesar's death, they defeated the assassins' forces in 42 BCE. The next year, Antony fell in love with Egyptian queen Cleopatra. After Antony suffered a military defeat against the Parthians in 36 BCE, he and Octavius had a falling out. Worsening the situation was the fact that, in 32 BCE, Antony divorced his Roman wife, Octavia (the sister of Octavius) and ceded many of the eastern Roman territories to Cleopatra and their children. Finally, in 31 BCE, a new civil war broke out between the Roman Senate-supported Octavius and Antony/Cleopatra.

"The Roman historian Plutarch wrote that the first move in the war was made by Antony (at the insistence of Cleopatra). Thus we see that the "king of the South" indeed first attacked the "king of the North." The Roman Senate quickly pronounced Antony an outlaw and declared war on Cleopatra.

"In this war, Herod supported Antony and sent supplies to his forces. He wished to join Antony for a final showdown with Octavius, but fortunately Antony dispatched him and his troops to fight the Nabatean king Malichus I.

"Amazingly, the prophecy was accurately fulfilled in regard to the composition of the forces engaged in the war. Despite the fact that each side had assembled large infantry forces, Plutarch records that these infantry were not engaged at all in the short war. Although his generals advised Antony to use his overwhelming infantry advantage to defeat Octavius, Antony decided to prosecute the war primarily with ships in order to satisfy the request of Cleopatra. Thus the conflict was decided by chariots, horsemen, and in a major naval battle, approximately 630 ships. After the navy of Antony and Cleopatra was routed off the promontory of Actium in Greece on September 2, 31 BCE, the infantry deserted and never saw battle.

"Seeing that Antony was all but defeated, Herod helped Quintus Didius, the Roman governor of Syria, prevent a troop of Antony's gladiators from reaching Egypt to aid Antony. Herod then undertook a dangerous sea voyage in winter 30 BCE to meet with Octavius on the Greek island of Rhodes. Herod came to him humbly and stated that he would be as loyal to Octavius as he had previously been to Antony. Octavius accepted Herod's pledge and promised him continued rule over Judea."

It was the end of WAR in the Land of Israel before the Messiah was born. It was also drawing near the end of Herod the Great, too! The Messiah of God was given a time when there was relative peace in the Land.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

HereALittleThereALittle.net on Daniel 11 says ALL this about verse 40:

"Remember, this prophecy is not primarily concerned with Syria, Egypt, Rome or any other foreign power, but with the fate of Daniel's people, the Jews. Verses 40-43 are a parenthetical insert describing the last major battle over the land of Israel before the Messiah appeared.

Sorry,this explanation simply does not hold water with respect to the specific details provided by :40-45.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Sorry,this explanation simply does not hold water with respect to the specific details provided by :40-45.

Shalom, WilliamL.

Well, that's the way these discussions usually go. Tell me, though, what is the "hole in the bucket" for you?

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Verse 40 begins "At the time of the end..."

That phrase appears 5 times in Daniel. But Jesus had something about, "the abomination of desolation" and "in the holy place". Which is used in the O.T. for the "most Holy" place and the area approaching it.

Jesus speaks of the AOD in the context of end times before He returns. The Romans burned the temple because they couldn't overcome its defense. It was destroyed and they had no more Holy Place to enter! They had nothing but rubble and ashes, that is NOT the Holy Place. 

In addition, most believe the description by Paul of the man of sin showing himself that he is God (Thes) is going the modern-day AOD. The description is worded, "as God sits in the Temple of God." Where should we think God would be sitting in His Temple? In the inner place behind the veil? Outside of it?