Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[iamlamad]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:13 AM, Vine Abider said:

At question here is why Paul uses the words "alive AND remain." Couldn't he just have said "alive"? Why did he add the further other "and remain"? 

If we think a certain way (i.e., there's only one rapture of the living), then we think he's just adding extra verbiage.

I agree with you; "alive" seems to be saying the same thing as "remain."

[WilliamL]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:13 AM, Vine Abider said:

At question here is why Paul uses the words "alive AND remain." Couldn't he just have said "alive"? Why did he add the further other "and remain"? 

Actually, there is no "AND" in the Greek. These are two consecutive participles, which literally mean "the ones living, the ones surviving..." I think the implication is that those believers living at that time will be alive because they will be able to survive the Trib, not becoming 5th seal martyrs: "...except those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved."

Edited April 24, 2023 by WilliamL

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Actually, there is no "AND" in the Greek. These are two consecutive participles, which literally mean "the ones living, the ones surviving..." I think the implication is that those believers living at that time will be alive because they will be able to survive the Trib, not becoming 5th seal martyrs: "...except those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved."

I do see that in the Greek - two "the" articles before each.  Thanks!

[truth7t7]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:33 PM, Vine Abider said:

Okay, yes I think I've heard that explanation before . . .

So good to see someone else who sees the matter of multiple raptures - first fruits, harvest, etc.

Multiple Raptures?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

There is one future "Catching Up" that will take place, this will be on the last day at the Lord's return

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited April 24, 2023 by truth7t7

[Vine Abider]

Thanks @truth7t7.  Might I be deceived?  Well yes, that is the very nature of deception, isn't it? 

[bloom]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:27 AM, The Light said:

I think I explained that the dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. They go to heaven. 

Then Christ returns for those that are alive and remain. This is the wheat harvest. When Christ returns for the wheat harvest He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

I believe the words alive and remain are used to show that the dead in Christ rise at a different time than the alive Church. The dead in Christ likely are caught up during Passover and the alive that remain are likely caught up at Pentecost.

But we are not done. There remains the fall fruit harvest. The fruit harvest will likely occur on the Feast of Trumpets as that is the feast when the last trump is blown. There is a reason that after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in with the pretribulation rapture that there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the fall harvest. This is the gathering from heaven and earth. The gathering occurs before the day of the Lord.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, that are gathered from the earth. This gathering occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the ONE-YEAR wrath of God.

Only the nation of Israel, those that have fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God. All believers, the Church and the 12 tribes that keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ will be in heaven for the marriage supper.

When does the Matthew 13:30 harvest of the tares fit in?

[The Light]

3 hours ago, bloom said:

When does the Matthew 13:30 harvest of the tares fit in?

The tares are burnt up so I think that would occur after the 1000 years.

Revelation 20

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[truth7t7]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:31 AM, bloom said:

When does the Matthew 13:30 harvest of the tares fit in?

The Tares Will Be Burnt In The Fire At The Lord's Return

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[bloom]

Could there be two consuming fires 1000 years apart? Beside the fire will have no effect on our "changed" new bodies. 

[bloom]

Matthew 13:30 "Gather ye first the tares". The tares must be gathered before the fire.