Ghost Story: Levels of Hell

[Biblican]

On 2/24/2023 at 3:19 PM, choir loft said:

We are commanded to cast out demons?

Holiness types typically think they're 'annointed' for everything from 'name-it-and-claim-it' to their version of priesthood.

Please quote chapter and verse for your assertion that 'we are commanded.....'.

Most of the deliverance ministry types I've met divide into two categories; 1 is a traveling snail oil salesman who sell$ his spiritual remedy to gullible types.  The other type is categorized by your personal testimony.  They are those who seem to fall into a situation where they have to learn on their own.  These last are the ones that seem to be doing a work worthy of attention.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Jesus said… “Cast out devils” Matthew 10:8 Then He called His twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils…Luke 9:1 You shall tread upon the lion and adder: The young lion and the dragon you shall trample under feet. – Psalm 91:13

Of course this command was given to His disciples. Not every believer is a disciple, actively following Jesus.

[Biblican]

3 minutes ago, Rockson said:

I'd suggest you're imposing way too much into the text of Rev 20:13 to make your case. 

I have done a lot of research into prophetic symbolism and I have learned that these clues are put their for a reason and it is not wisdom to ignore them. Couple Rev. 20:13 with the disciples' mistaking Jesus for a ghost (which is not the same word for demon)  when He walked on the water suggests that the belief that souls did wander existed. These would be unbelieving souls that did not rate Paradise as in Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

[Rockson]

8 hours ago, Biblican said:

I have done a lot of research into prophetic symbolism and I have learned that these clues are put their for a reason and it is not wisdom to ignore them. Couple Rev. 20:13 with the disciples' mistaking Jesus for a ghost (which is not the same word for demon)  when He walked on the water suggests that the belief that souls did wander existed. These would be unbelieving souls that did not rate Paradise as in Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

I'd say at this time the disciples themselves didn't understand about all thing about the spiritual realm. They were following a lot of traditions or what culture wondered about. Not so once they got into the Book of Acts time. 

And you don't have to have the same Greek word to describe demons. One place it refers to them as unclean spirits 

πνευμάτων (pneumatōn) unclean spirits

and in another place it calls them daimonions. 

daimonion: an evil spirit, a demon

Original Word: δαιμόνιον, ου, τό

And "ghost" from Matt 24:16 you referred to is phantasma: an appearance, apparition

Original Word: φάντασμα, ατος, τό

I'd say you can't really say phantasma or phantom would insist it has to be human spirits. 

 

 

 

[Biblican]

35 minutes ago, Rockson said:

I'd say at this time the disciples themselves didn't understand about all thing about the spiritual realm. They were following a lot of traditions or what culture wondered about. Not so once they got into the Book of Acts time. 

And you don't have to have the same Greek word to describe demons. One place it refers to them as unclean spirits 

πνευμάτων (pneumatōn) unclean spirits

and in another place it calls them daimonions. 

daimonion: an evil spirit, a demon

Original Word: δαιμόνιον, ου, τό

And "ghost" from Matt 24:16 you referred to is phantasma: an appearance, apparition

Original Word: φάντασμα, ατος, τό

I'd say you can't really say phantasma or phantom would insist it has to be human spirits. 

 

 

 

But ghosts were considered to be the souls of dead people. That's why the word phantasma is used in Matt. 24:16.

[Rockson]

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

But ghosts were considered to be the souls of dead people. That's why the word phantasma is used in Matt. 24:16.

Not sure why you draw that conclusion. There's nothing in the text that suggests that. It's actually Matt 14:26. My mistake. I was the one at first who put down Matt 24:16 

[choir loft]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:42 AM, Biblican said:

Jesus said… “Cast out devils” Matthew 10:8 Then He called His twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils…Luke 9:1 You shall tread upon the lion and adder: The young lion and the dragon you shall trample under feet. – Psalm 91:13

Of course this command was given to His disciples. Not every believer is a disciple, actively following Jesus.

Your statement is more accurate than most acknowledge.

A lot of folks, especially Fundamentalist types, are in love with emotional experiences.  Chief among these is the careless idea they can exorcise spiritual entities - whether they have experience & training or not.  Typically they don't.

Exorcism isn't something one wanders into without training from an experienced person.  This does NOT include itinerant deliverance preachers who have no formal education beyond high school.   I've met too many of these bogus snake oil salesmen myself.

That being said those who truly follow Christ tend to avoid demonic infestations when and where they're encountered. 

When I visited the city of Salvador, Brazil I discovered a town that was so oppressed by the enemy that I couldn't imagine Christians living there.  I prayed that God would nuke the place.  I really did.  Not much later I met a Christian man who lived there and who told me a few stories that calmed my nerves.  Apparently there were more than ten righteous persons in that city.  Nevertheless I was VERY happy to leave that awful place.

Exorcism is not a game.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited February 28, 2023 by choir loft

[Biblican]

On 2/28/2023 at 8:03 AM, choir loft said:

Your statement is more accurate than most acknowledge.

A lot of folks, especially Fundamentalist types, are in love with emotional experiences.  Chief among these is the careless idea they can exorcise spiritual entities - whether they have experience & training or not.  Typically they don't.

Exorcism isn't something one wanders into without training from an experienced person.  This does NOT include itinerant deliverance preachers who have no formal education beyond high school.   I've met too many of these bogus snake oil salesmen myself.

That being said those who truly follow Christ tend to avoid demonic infestations when and where they're encountered. 

When I visited the city of Salvador, Brazil I discovered a town that was so oppressed by the enemy that I couldn't imagine Christians living there.  I prayed that God would nuke the place.  I really did.  Not much later I met a Christian man who lived there and who told me a few stories that calmed my nerves.  Apparently there were more than ten righteous persons in that city.  Nevertheless I was VERY happy to leave that awful place.

Exorcism is not a game.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You are right. We have to know what we are doing.  Demons can kick back on Christians who have sin in their lives. We didn't have anyone train us, we learned by doing, we had no choice. It started when my husband woke up in the middle of the night paralyzed with a pressure crawling up his body that began to strangle him. He only had to think the word "Jesus" and the hold broke. I have learned that some missionaries have had the same experience.

[Biblican]

7 hours ago, anetazo said:

Theirs  no ghosts. Both the wicked and the righteous  are with the Father. Luke chapter 16, there are two sides of the gulf. Sheol is called hell,  its holding place for the wicked. Paradise is were the saints go. Leviticus chapter 19, tells us not to mess with the occult. Those  seeking  medium's,  wizards  or messing with ouija boards. Their  inviting evil spirits. They're  in contact with evil spirits. Corinthians chapter 5, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Read  first samuel chapter 28:7. To 28:25.  King saul sought  woman with a familiar spirt. She summoned  samuel. One big problem with this. It wasn't samuel the prophet. Ot was a evil spirit  impersonating samuel. Get the picture. Dont mess with the occult. 

I agree, we don't mess with the occult. My point in posting this is to show for those who do not believe in hell or any after life that there is another level of it where souls go that are not in the lowest hell, and some paranormal activity is evidence of that. The rest is demonic. That is the sea in Rev. 13:20. Paradise was emptied when Jesus ministered there after His crucifixion. I believe  the sea is the replacement for Paradise.

[Biblican]

7 minutes ago, Biblican said:

I agree, we don't mess with the occult. My point in posting this is to show for those who do not believe in hell or any after life that there is another level of it where souls go that are not in the lowest hell, and some paranormal activity is evidence of that. The rest is demonic. That is the sea in Rev. 13:20. Paradise was emptied when Jesus ministered there after His crucifixion. I believe  the sea is the replacement for Paradise.

Whoops! Wrong reference. It's Rev. 20:13.

[choir loft]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:10 PM, Biblican said:

You are right. We have to know what we are doing.  Demons can kick back on Christians who have sin in their lives. We didn't have anyone train us, we learned by doing, we had no choice. It started when my husband woke up in the middle of the night paralyzed with a pressure crawling up his body that began to strangle him. He only had to think the word "Jesus" and the hold broke. I have learned that some missionaries have had the same experience.

Self-learning seems to be the way individuals gain experience.   

Its a dangerous business and I'm reluctant to advise anyone to get into it out of a sense of curiosity.   Those that do get involved do so mostly out of necessity as you have testified.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...