The End of this Age

[WilliamL]

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

...nor have you proved that "when He comes" includes multiple returns to earth.

For you to say this again shows you haven't been paying attention to what I've said.

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

...2 Thess 2:1, 1 Cor 15:23 and Rev 20:4 which prove that the resurrection of the saved will be at the Second Advent...

So you say the Parousia comes at the Rev. 20:4 resurrection? Since Christ is openly revealed from heaven at the 6th Seal, long before the Beast comes, who beheads the Rev. 20:4 saints, your teaching contradicts the Scripture. Christ's revelation in the clouds of heaven IS His Parousia, when he will first raise the dead in the End Times.

Because of false teachings like yours, I wrote a whole blog on Rev. 20:4-6, From which this is an excerpt:

4 … And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the Beast nor his image… And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead do not live again until the thousand years shall be completed. This is the πρωτη/prōtē resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one having part in the πρωτη resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him for a thousand years.

... In the context of Revelation 20, the Greek word πρωτη primarily means FIRST (FOREMOST) IN PREEMINENCE, NOT ORDER. This word can be used both ways, so context must determine its meaning. Some people presume it can only mean first in order; and therefore, that these souls shall be the first ones to be raised from the dead. This is incorrect. For earlier in Revelation, verse 1:5, we find that Jesus is called “the πρωτοτοκος/first-born of the dead.” Jesus was the first among all men to be resurrected from the dead with an immortalized body: no one else of the dead was immortalized on that same day or before. Others will also have been resurrected from the dead prior to the raising of these Revelation 20:4 saints, including those of the dead who will have been “caught up in clouds” to Jesus long before the Battle of Armageddon; as also will be the killed and quickly-resurrected Two Witnesses. 1 Thes. 4:14-17; Rev. 11:3ff.

So the primary meaning here of πρωτη is that Jesus, along with the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 saints, the Two Witnesses, and the Revelation 20:4 saints, are preeminent in the sense of all together being foremost in status of those who will be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennial reign of Christ. Because in addition to these, non-believers will also be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennium. But these will arise unto a very non-preeminent “resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:29; Dan. 12:2; Is. 66:24

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

 

[FreeGrace]

12 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

It's not death if part of the entity is still living! Please do not bother to reply. I give up!

Sorry that you give up, but for the benefit of those who just read and never post, I will reply.

If you would realize that "death" only refers to the body.  While the Bible does say that God IS ABLE to destroy both body and soul in Hades, the Bible NEVER says that He will do that.

Rather, the Bible is clear that unbelievers will experience a physical death TWICE and then "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever" in the LOF.

The soul does not die.  It WILL BE tormented for eternity.

In the OT, when it says "the soul that sins shall die" the word for "soul" refers to the PERSON, not the immaterial part.  

Our consciousness is in our soul, not our body.  And our soul is IN our body.  The Bible refers to the body as a HOUSE for the soul. The house will be destroyed, but not the soul.

If one wants to argue that a soul can die, then ONLY in the sense that the soul will be separated from God for eternity.  The basis meaning of "death" is separation.  James 2:26 notes that a body without the spirit is DEAD, it is affirming this.  

iow, when a soul/spirit leaves the body, the body is physically dead.  

To be born spiritually dead, the condition ALL humans are born into, means separated from God.  That's WHY we all need to be "born again", which means we are no longer separated from God and will live with Him forever.

Blessings to the readers!

[truth7t7]

44 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Why would anyone assume that the unbeliever will receive an immortal glorified body?  Why?  And why is the LOF also called the "second death"?  Don't words mean anything to you?  Or do you treat all words as fluid?  So you can just have them mean whatever you need them to mean?

We KNOW that all unbelievers will be resurrected, because of the 3 verses that SAY SO.

We KNOW that the LOF is called the "second death" because the Bible SAYS SO.  We also KNOW that unbelievers, like Satan, will "Be tormented day and night for ever and ever" in the LOF, because the Bible SAYS SO.

If you can't or won't connect the dots, then there is nothing else I can say.

OK, then what does it prove?  Since the Bible calls the LOF the "second death" are you just going to ignore that fact?  What will die a second time, if not the body?

1 Cor 15 is ONLY about believers.  Paul made NO mention of unbelievers in that chapter.  Or show me where he did.  You make a huge leap for that assumption.

Huh?  The "desired ending" doesn't have an ending.  Rev 20:10 is very clear, "day and night for ever and ever".  That's the "end" for unbelievers, an eternity of 'torment'.  Since the body will be long gone, what's left is the conscious soul.  

btw, for all those annihilationists out there that just can't conceive of God tormenting humans for eternity, consider what Jesus said several times:  Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24.

He said it would be more bearable for the citizens of Sodom & Gomorrha than for cities in His day, because they saw the Messiah and rejected Him and His miracles.

So, Jesus indicated clearly that there will be levels of "bearableness".  iow, it will be MORE bearable for some than others.  Or, LESS bearable for some than others.

The idea that the LOF will be excruciating pain and torment for eternity isn't taught in the Bible.  What is taught is more or less bearableness.

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[FreeGrace]

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

For you to say this again shows you haven't been paying attention to what I've said.

Rather, all we get from you is your "multiple harvest" theory that you haven't proved.

Just because Paul referred to the resurrection of Jesus as "firstfruits" doesn't mean he was thinking of multiple harvests.  In fact, Paul made clear what he meant by that word in Acts 26:23, in which he said that "Jesus was the FIRST to rise from the dead". No harvest.  Jesus was the FIRST human to receive a glorified immortal physical body upon resurrection.  THEN, "when He comes" ALL believers, or "those who belong to him" will receive theirs.

You have done nothing to prove anything different.

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

So you say the Parousia comes at the Rev. 20:4 resurrection? Since Christ is openly revealed from heaven at the 6th Seal, long before the Beast comes, who beheads the Rev. 20:4 saints, your teaching contradicts the Scripture. Christ's revelation in the clouds of heaven IS His Parousia, when he will first raise the dead in the End Times.

Rev 20 says plainly the trib martyrs will rise from the dead.  Pretty clear to me.  And notes there will be 1,000 years between the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved.

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Because of false teachings like yours, I wrote a whole blog on Rev. 20:4-6, From which this is an excerpt:

4 … And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the Beast nor his image… And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead do not live again until the thousand years shall be completed. This is the πρωτη/prōtē resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one having part in the πρωτη resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him for a thousand years.

... In the context of Revelation 20, the Greek word πρωτη primarily means FIRST (FOREMOST) IN PREEMINENCE, NOT ORDER. This word can be used both ways, so context must determine its meaning. Some people presume it can only mean first in order; and therefore, that these souls shall be the first ones to be raised from the dead. This is incorrect. For earlier in Revelation, verse 1:5, we find that Jesus is called “the πρωτοτοκος/first-born of the dead.” Jesus was the first among all men to be resurrected from the dead with an immortalized body: no one else of the dead was immortalized on that same day or before. Others will also have been resurrected from the dead prior to the raising of these Revelation 20:4 saints, including those of the dead who will have been “caught up in clouds” to Jesus long before the Battle of Armageddon; as also will be the killed and quickly-resurrected Two Witnesses. 1 Thes. 4:14-17; Rev. 11:3ff.

So the primary meaning here of πρωτη is that Jesus, along with the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 saints, the Two Witnesses, and the Revelation 20:4 saints, are preeminent in the sense of all together being foremost in status of those who will be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennial reign of Christ. Because in addition to these, non-believers will also be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennium. But these will arise unto a very non-preeminent “resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:29; Dan. 12:2; Is. 66:24

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

Why do you think your blog proves anything?  I stick with the Bible, which is clear enough to understand.  When people give their opinions, I do what the Bereans did with Paul's teaching/preaching.  They searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true.

I've done that with your teaching and I find that what you claim is not true.

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You have been given the clear words of the Bible.  You are free to accept or reject them.  I've proven with clear verses that there will be 1,000 years between the resurrection of the saved and the resurrection of the unsaved.

If your theory were to be correct, then the beloved apostle was dead wrong in Rev 20.

[kenny2212]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

In the OT, when it says "the soul that sins shall die" the word for "soul" refers to the PERSON, not the immaterial part.

Are you now saying one is one's body? 

[kenny2212]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 

 

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If you would realize that "death" only refers to the body.  While the Bible does say that God IS ABLE to destroy both body and soul in Hades, the Bible NEVER says that He will do that.

 

 

Of what use is Jesus' sharing of this information if God is never going to do the information?

John 12:49 (NKJV) - For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Are you saying God may waste words?

 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by kenny2212

[Montana Marv]

11 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Yes. But FreeGrace said that the unrighteous will be resurrected in mortal (physical, flesh; made from the dust) bodies.

So will the righteous.  The old physical body must be formed or reformed first (this is resurrection) before it can become translated into a spiritual body. And this can be done in the twinkling of an eye.  A dead body is a dead body.  A real, real old dead body has gone back to the dust of the earth.  Later to be reformed, later to be reunited with its original spirit/soul.  Same with the Just or Unjust.  We are all from Adam.

Now another question.  What happens to those of 1 Thes 4:17 - Those alive in Christ.  These are not resurrected, but they are translated directly into a spiritual body.  Now what happens to those dead in Christ from the previous verse.  They go through the process of receiving a physical body (resurrection), then becoming translated into a spiritual body.  The same with the unjust, they have a different destination.

So you see the mortal physical body, spiritual body connection.  The translation process must go from one entity to another.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FJK]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 I stick with the Bible, which is clear enough to understand.

I think that sometimes we have to develop in our understanding, like children becoming adults.

We have to understand a thing as children understand it and as we develop we understand that thing as adults do, then we end up understanding as old people with a lifetime of experience understand it.

None of those understandings are or were wrong, they just represent differing levels of development.

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 20 says plainly the trib martyrs will rise from the dead.  Pretty clear to me.  And notes there will be 1,000 years between the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved.

This doesn't say when they will rise from the dead.  You are presuming something which is not there.  Those of 1 Thes 4:17 - Those alive in Christ, those who meet Christ in the air are not resurrected.  Those who come out from the 70th week alive also are not resurrected.  So the claim that all the saved are resurrected before the 1000 years is not founded in Scripture.  This is where the harvest principle comes in to play.  Not all the resurrection of the Just happens at the same time.  Those mortals who are righteous at the end of the 1000 years are not resurrected, yet they are translated into a new spiritual body.  The same as those of 1 Thes 4:17.  Just at a different time.

In Christ

Montana Marv