New Wine in Old Wineskins (clergy/laity system)

[Vine Abider]

17 hours ago, teddyv said:

I'm from a fairly traditional Reformed denomination, and I would hesitate to say that our members are suppressed from from "free-functioning". But I would have to ask first- what does free-functioning mean to you? Is this implying the more charismatic manifestations? 

By "more charismatic manifestations" I take that to mean things like speaking in tongues.  No, not thinking specifically about that. I've experienced gatherings of a couple hundred (and larger/smaller) where things were much more open.  That is, anyone could call a song to sing or standup and share something they were touched with.  This didn't occur during the time the scheduled speaker was speaking, but before and after them.  It's incredibly refreshing to one's spirit, to hear spontaneous testimonies of faith from various members.

I've heard of some pastors who have seen this approach in action, enjoyed the free movement of the Spirit among the members, and have tried it with their ekklesia --> only to discontinue it a short time later, because they felt things might "get too out of control."

[Starise]

I admit to having some aversion to large  stuffy organizations and much prefer the low key more loose environment of smaller gatherings. There are many good things to say about my church now and some I don't particularly favor mainly due to my nature.

I still roll with what they do and appreciate the smaller groups within groups as opposed to the larger more corporate gatherings once a week.

I am not sure what the Lord is doing with me or if He has kicked me to the curb for awhile because most of my dreams and expectations in ministry have been discouraged.

Our pastor once said during a sermon that if God had intended for us to be in a specific place or position He would have arranged it and we would be there. I had to ponder that one because I have desired to be in my old place but no openings existed or were offered to me in that capacity. In thinking further about my pastor's comments I have decided that yes, I have been kicked to the curb. I am about as  worthless in that congregation as anyone has ever been. It's not a good feeling and frankly it feels like a punishment from God. If God had wanted me to be doing those things here according to the pastor, I would be in them, so I guess I have my answer. 

In looking at how my pastor arrived at his position, a committee hired a finders organization for a very large sum of money to "find" this man. Everyone likes him including me, but I'm not so sure hiring a finders organization for 90K was the hand of God either. The other deacons and elders there are all mostly engrained over time and they seem to get voted in over and over again. When they passed out the sheets we used to yay or nay a candidate I went against some of those entrenched people, but my vote made zero difference. The popular man is the popular man. Apparently I have very bad ideas and taste. 

So the whole church structure thing has really just turned me off. I feel there are importantly regarded people and completely forgotten people so far as consideration for what they could do in the church and people are seldom matched with their gifts. I have not been encouraged in this capacity at all. 

I have given up caring at this point. Really doesn't matter to me any more. If they restrict me because I believe in immersion .vs sprinkling baptism, then maybe I'm in the wrong place or I should just be ok with ministering on the outside of anything so far as church governence. I won't take a leadership class for that reason, so I will never be open to those oppotunities here.

Old skins/new skins....I think this was referring to the transition to the Gentiles wasn't it?  The Jews needed to see things in a new way. 

Human organization is mostly a dog and pony show.

[teddyv]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

I admit to having some aversion to large  stuffy organizations and much prefer the low key more loose environment of smaller gatherings. There are many good things to say about my church now and some I don't particularly favor mainly due to my nature.

I still roll with what they do and appreciate the smaller groups within groups as opposed to the larger more corporate gatherings once a week.

I am not sure what the Lord is doing with me or if He has kicked me to the curb for awhile because most of my dreams and expectations in ministry have been discouraged.

Our pastor once said during a sermon that if God had intended for us to be in a specific place or position He would have arranged it and we would be there. I had to ponder that one because I have desired to be in my old place but no openings existed or were offered to me in that capacity. In thinking further about my pastor's comments I have decided that yes, I have been kicked to the curb. I am about as  worthless in that congregation as anyone has ever been. It's not a good feeling and frankly it feels like a punishment from God. If God had wanted me to be doing those things here according to the pastor, I would be in them, so I guess I have my answer. 

In looking at how my pastor arrived at his position, a committee hired a finders organization for a very large sum of money to "find" this man. Everyone likes him including me, but I'm not so sure hiring a finders organization for 90K was the hand of God either. The other deacons and elders there are all mostly engrained over time and they seem to get voted in over and over again. When they passed out the sheets we used to yay or nay a candidate I went against some of those entrenched people, but my vote made zero difference. The popular man is the popular man. Apparently I have very bad ideas and taste. 

So the whole church structure thing has really just turned me off. I feel there are importantly regarded people and completely forgotten people so far as consideration for what they could do in the church and people are seldom matched with their gifts. I have not been encouraged in this capacity at all. 

I have given up caring at this point. Really doesn't matter to me any more. If they restrict me because I believe in immersion .vs sprinkling baptism, then maybe I'm in the wrong place or I should just be ok with ministering on the outside of anything so far as church governence. I won't take a leadership class for that reason, so I will never be open to those oppotunities here.

Old skins/new skins....I think this was referring to the transition to the Gentiles wasn't it?  The Jews needed to see things in a new way. 

Human organization is mostly a dog and pony show.

Wow, I had never heard of a pastor sourced out to a third party headhunter, but maybe I should not be surprised.

We've had elders that were not paedo-baptists as our church practices, but they acknowledged that they will adhere to the doctrinal standards of the church and simply serve in the role they have been named to. That marks an element of humbleness and servant leadership to be able to put aside secondary issues.

Sort of related, there does seem to be an elevation of the pastor in these very large churches such that if something happens to them, the whole church collapses. The pastor is the "brand" so to speak. Probably the best case study is Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill.

 

 

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

Wow, I had never heard of a pastor sourced out to a third party headhunter, but maybe I should not be surprised.

We've had elders that were not paedo-baptists as our church practices, but they acknowledged that they will adhere to the doctrinal standards of the church and simply serve in the role they have been named to. That marks an element of humbleness and servant leadership to be able to put aside secondary issues.

Sort of related, there does seem to be an elevation of the pastor in these very large churches such that if something happens to them, the whole church collapses. The pastor is the "brand" so to speak. Probably the best case study is Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill.

 

 

I read an article not too long ago, I think it was called, "The Pastor as CEO" or something akin to that. In it they talked about the different departments that are created and these report to the Pastor/CEO.  One is a marketing department, which comes up with programs solely to bring in numbers.

I'll see if I can find that article and attach it here.

UPDATE: I haven't found that specific article yet, but I've actually found several references to this topic.  Interestingly, some think the CEO/Pastor is a good thing!  I guess I shouldn't be too surprised by that since that's how many think it should be in the modern church (i.e., viewing the ekklesia as an organization instead of an organism)

Edited March 15, 2023 by Vine Abider
Clarity

[teddyv]

41 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I read an article not too long ago, I think it was called, "The Pastor as CEO" or something akin to that. In it they talked about the different departments that are created and these report to the Pastor/CEO.  One is a marketing department, which comes up with programs solely to bring in numbers.

I'll see if I can find that article and attach it here.

UPDATE: I haven't found that specific article yet, but I've actually found several references to this topic.  Interestingly, some think the CEO/Pastor is a good thing!  I guess I shouldn't be too surprised by that since that's how many think it should be in the modern church (i.e., viewing the ekklesia as an organization instead of an organism)

You can see some rough parallels where the pastor is an executive officer that does the work directed from the board. I think there are many examples where the board abdicates their responsibility and let the pastor essentially run things as they see fit. But elders (at least as I see it) are charged with the well-being of the assembly - and that means potentially challenging the pastoral direction. 

In fact, this is what happened in our own church, where there were some deep issues with our pastor and the board ultimately had to sever the relationship.

[Marathoner]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

I am not sure what the Lord is doing with me or if He has kicked me to the curb for awhile because most of my dreams and expectations in ministry have been discouraged.

Our pastor once said during a sermon that if God had intended for us to be in a specific place or position He would have arranged it and we would be there. I had to ponder that one because I have desired to be in my old place but no openings existed or were offered to me in that capacity. In thinking further about my pastor's comments I have decided that yes, I have been kicked to the curb. I am about as  worthless in that congregation as anyone has ever been. It's not a good feeling and frankly it feels like a punishment from God. If God had wanted me to be doing those things here according to the pastor, I would be in them, so I guess I have my answer.

The Lord hasn't kicked you to the curb, brother. Not at all. 

@Vine Abider shared the breath of God in his post above: the Body of Christ is not an organization but rather, an organism. Using myself as an example, no matter where I go and regardless of where I happen to be, my place in the Body doesn't change.

My place in the Body of Christ is to serve... to care for the sick and visit with the lonely... to remember the forgotten... and to encourage others as the Lord encourages me. Therefore, no matter where I go and wherever I happen to be, I'm serving others... caring for the sick and visiting with the lonely... remembering the forgotten... and encouraging others just as the Son of God encourages me. 

This life which has been given to us by Jesus Christ is not something to be kept in a closet, brought out with Sunday's finest when the bell tolls, calling us to be seated in a building. This life which He has given to us is to be lived... walked in... breathed... and poured out like living water, just as the Son of Man poured Himself out for us all. The more we pour out, the more we are filled; and the more we are filled, the brighter His Light shines in us all. 

It's my joy to set tables and remain ready to serve at all times. I'm not watching speakers... I couldn't care less about personalities and the like (they have received their reward). No, I'm waiting upon the Lord. That's when I see the opportunity to serve present itself, and so that's what I do. Someone sitting alone... that's why the Lord has me watching and waiting. 

Consider how the Lord hasn't tossed you aside, my friend. Consider how the Lord is revealing something else to you... something far greater than that which you knew before. Rejoice that He has delivered you from the organization! The members of that organization have already received their reward but as for you? You are called to something far greater than what is contained within those walls. Wait upon the Lord!  

[Marathoner]

6 hours ago, Starise said:

Our pastor once said during a sermon that if God had intended for us to be in a specific place or position He would have arranged it and we would be there.

The pastor spoke truly. We are right where the Lord intends for us to be! If the Lord desired to plant you in that organization, then planted you would be. 

I know you've been through much (and are going through much right now), but I'll share something which runs afoul of what these eyes of flesh perceive. First, everyone ought to know this, that nothing which I have received from the Lord applies to me alone. I'm the work of His hand, but then so are we all (Isaiah 64:8); the Lord raised me up from ruin but then, we are raised in newness of life with Christ (Romans 6). By the power and grace of God, the Lord has made new wineskins from the old. The Lord is well-pleased to make all things new! 

Are we forgotten? Forsaken? Abandoned, perhaps even shipwrecked? Rejoice in the Lord, for we are in the very best of company. Remember Paul, the vessel which Jesus Christ sent to the Gentiles. Paul was struck blind by God... stoned and left for dead... shipwrecked... and imprisoned. From those whom everything is required, even more shall be given in the restoration. 

The Lord took everything from me, brother. This body was strong, so He rendered me weak and sickly. I was intelligent and well-spoken, so my brain was damaged by infection, leaving me incapable of speaking more than simple phrases. I had to be nagged to eat food and drink water (I would forget to do both). I excelled at athletics --- I was a swift runner and well-coordinated --- so I struggled to walk without exhaustion overcoming me. 

He took away my family of this flesh. It pleased the Lord that I should never become a wealthy man, so I was destitute after casting everything aside to follow Christ. I remained that way until the Lord delivered me with a mighty hand, and this work of Christ became the restoration. The Lord has given everything to me! 

I have more brothers and sisters than I can possibly number. When I struggled to speak, I learned the value of silence (slow to speak, quick to listen). My pride in this flesh is accordingly crucified, for the Lord was pleased to afflict me (muscular dystrophy) so I'll never forget how His grace is sufficient for us all. 

From those whom everything is required, much more shall be given in the restoration. Whatever we lose (or receive) in this world, it's nothing compared to what awaits us in the age to come.  

Edited March 15, 2023 by Marathoner
typo

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

The pastor spoke truly. We are right where the Lord intends for us to be! If the Lord desired to plant you in that organization, then planted you would be. 

I know you've been through much (and are going through much right now), but I'll share something which runs afoul of what these eyes of flesh perceive. First, everyone ought to know this, that nothing which I have received from the Lord applies to me alone. I'm the work of His hand, but then so are we all (Isaiah 64:8); the Lord raised me up from ruin but then, we are raised in newness of life with Christ (Romans 6). By the power and grace of God, the Lord has made new wineskins from the old. The Lord is well-pleased to make all things new! 

Are we forgotten? Forsaken? Abandoned, perhaps even shipwrecked? Rejoice in the Lord, for we are in the very best of company. Remember Paul, the vessel which Jesus Christ sent to the Gentiles. Paul was struck blind by God... stoned and left for dead... shipwrecked... and imprisoned. From those whom everything is required, even more shall be given in the restoration. 

The Lord took everything from me, brother. This body was strong, so He rendered me weak and sickly. I was intelligent and well-spoken, so my brain was damaged by infection, leaving me incapable of speaking more than simple phrases. I had to be nagged to eat food and drink water (I would forget to do both). I excelled at athletics --- I was a swift runner and well-coordinated --- so I struggled to walk without exhaustion overcoming me. 

He took away my family of this flesh. It pleased the Lord that I should never become a wealthy man, so I was destitute after casting everything aside to follow Christ. I remained that way until the Lord delivered me with a mighty hand, and this work of Christ became the restoration. The Lord has given everything to me! 

I have more brothers and sisters than I can possibly number. When I struggled to speak, I learned the value of silence (slow to speak, quick to listen). My pride in this flesh is accordingly crucified, for the Lord was pleased to afflict me (muscular dystrophy) so I'll never forget how His grace is sufficient for us all. 

From those whom everything is required, much more shall be given in the restoration. Whatever we lose (or receive) in this world, it's nothing compared to what awaits us in the age to come.  

Marathoner, that is music to my ears. I was a teacher of children, loved sport, flew planes etc. However, one day I contracted Ross River fever and was layed low- couldn`t teach, couldn`t do all the things I used to do, even thinking was hard, as well as the body feeling like it had armor on it was so heavy. However over time I learned more of the Lord and His ways through the difficulties. 

Years later, now I wouldn`t trade the journey for health back then, as the spiritual journey is so precious and for the eternal. 

Glad to be associated with you bro, in your journey too.

Marilyn.

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I am doing my best to get into this mindset I really am. I know your words ring true here. You can call me short straw because God seems to have taken pretty much everything from me. If I didn't know better I would swear He hates me.

I had a real heart to heart with God last evening and I am surprised He hasn't struck me dead. 

I don't feel love right now. In one pleading prayer after the other I come up empty.

I know He loves all of us, but right now He has a really funny way of showing it.

I am waiting on the Lord....sometimes with apprehension and great impatience.

I think I would be better off if He just ended me.

 

 

Starise, my brother in Christ, please don’t give up.  You are going through a depression of spirit.  You are very sad.  So please, today, rise up and fight back.  Get back into the scriptures and feed on those faithful promises of God that are promised to you. 

For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. O LORD, You have searched me and known me. You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off. You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether. You have hedged me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it. Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. If I say, "Surely the darkness shall fall on me," Even the night shall be light about me; Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You. For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; When I awake, I am still with You. Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

- Psalm 139:1-18,23-24 (NKJV)

 

[FJK]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

If I didn't know better I would swear He hates me.

I grew became an adult in a war zone long time ago, so I have a bit of a different way of looking at things sometimes.

 

So when you think everything is too difficult it isn't necessarily a bad thing, you have to consider that when your attack is going too smoothly you're probably walking into an ambush.

 

Nothing worthwhile is easy, if it was it wouldn't be worth much.