Pre-tribulation (for lack of a better word)

[iamlamad]

On 3/11/2023 at 5:08 PM, AdHoc said:

I think that you'll have to reconsider. "THE" Great Tribulation differs from Tribulation in that;

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened (Matt.24:21–22)

Now, that includes the great flood of Noah's time. There the "elect" were saved. In the coming tribulation the "elect" are on the brink of being annihilated. And for the first time supernatural torments are added to men. For the first time men will decide on suicide but be unable to accomplish it.

What we have experienced up to now is what men can inflict on us. But there comes a day when God is the Torturer, and of this it is said in Mathew 10:28 ..

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA

In the Book of Revelation the word "WRATH" is mentioned 13 times. 10 of then refer to God's WRATH. It is this wrath that Jesus must die for (1st Thess.1:10, 5:9). It is one thing to be the aim of men's wrath. It is fully another thing to be the object of God's wrath.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb.10:31)

But we agree that "Pre-Tribulation" is a man-made concept. Why, everything that happens before the Tribulation begins is "Pre-Tribulation". Pre-Tribulation birth of Adam, Pre-Tribulation birth of Noah, Pre-Tribulation rapture of Enoch and Elijah. Some even speak of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. But nobody seems to mention that this rapture is given only to the Overcomers of the Church. At least our Lord's prophecies are consistent. Five Virgins thought the extra oil was for free - and were called "foolish" by the Holy Spirit

This is why "pre-70th week rapture" is better: it is more difficult to misunderstand.

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is why "pre-70th week rapture" is better: it is more difficult to misunderstand.

You address an interesting point. The events of 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 put our "being gathered" quite close to the Beast's reign. But the Type of missing the universal judgment is Noah. And there, God commanded they enter the Ark 7 days before the deluge was let loose.

Then there is perhaps another indication of an early rapture. It is the TIME that or Lord needs to judge millions of Christians. Lets say that there are 8 billion people on earth. Let's say 1% are Christians (more like 1‰). Let's be pessimistic and take the pro mille. That makes 8 million Christians alive at His Coming. Say, the number of people who have lived and died since Pentecost is also 8 billion. That gives another 8 million dead Christians. Total - 16 million

Now the Lord promised that all secrets would be exposed at judgment. That would normally mean a public (before the Church) account of your works. If each saint got 5 minutes to tell and the others got 1 minute to appreciate the secret things revealed, total judgment time for 16 million is 96 million minutes. Now, there are 525600 minutes in a year. This would give a total judgment time for the whole Church of 184 years.

Now, I'm sure the Lord has this under control, and has a system that takes maybe 6 to 10 years is in place (or maybe much shorter). What I wanted to show was that in my finite mind there must be time factored into the logistics that might put the rapture at up to ten years before the Great Tribulation.

My figures should now be wiped out as this was pure speculation. But there is a logistical element to be considered - if not adhered to. The Bible is a book of figures and a Book of perfectly practical timing. This took 400 years - for example;

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. (Ge 15:13–16)

[Revelation Man]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:03 PM, kenny2212 said:

John 16:33 (NKJV) - These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

I believe there is no such as thing as "Pre-tribulation" in this world. To have any such thing as "Pre-tribulation", we would have to go back to the Garden of Eden, before the fall. Since the fall, there has always been tribulation in one part of the world or another. It's not Pre-tribulation, it's Pre-wrath. Also I'd rather call it the "70th week" rather than "the tribulation".

Its Pre 70th week Rapture to be technical. That is why I say those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Church Age who are Raptured out of GREAT TRIBULATION, not of of the Greatest Ever Troubles. No one will be Raptured DURING the 70th week, they are all Judged in Rev. 20:4 AFTER Jesus' return. 

There can and is a Pre Greatest Every Troubles, but most people THINK the 70th week is that period, it is not, the last 3.5 years is the greatest ever troubles. But ALL Times are Tribulation on this earth.

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for the reply.

I really think that you should have addressed my argument. It would have forced you to study the matter a bit. Even if I was wrong, it is good to settle it in your mind.

I did address your argument, the only covenant between man and God is the blood on Calvary

I'm fully aware of your beliefs, it's called classical dispensationalism, Darby, Adulterer C.I. Scofield, and his 1909 reference Bible, also his  prodigy Lewis S. Chaffer in Dallas theological cemetary

Hoc I was bound by the same for 20 years, sitting in the Calvary Chapel pew shouting amen, deceived by "Christian Zionism", never studying or understanding the foundations of dispensationalism

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Edited March 15, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is why "pre-70th week rapture" is better: it is more difficult to misunderstand.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture

The church will be present on this earth to be eyewitnesses of (The Great Tribulation) and (The Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in the heavens as seen below

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You address an interesting point. The events of 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 put our "being gathered" quite close to the Beast's reign. But the Type of missing the universal judgment is Noah. And there, God commanded they enter the Ark 7 days before the deluge was let loose.

Then there is perhaps another indication of an early rapture. It is the TIME that or Lord needs to judge millions of Christians. Lets say that there are 8 billion people on earth. Let's say 1% are Christians (more like 1‰). Let's be pessimistic and take the pro mille. That makes 8 million Christians alive at His Coming. Say, the number of people who have lived and died since Pentecost is also 8 billion. That gives another 8 million dead Christians. Total - 16 million

Now the Lord promised that all secrets would be exposed at judgment. That would normally mean a public (before the Church) account of your works. If each saint got 5 minutes to tell and the others got 1 minute to appreciate the secret things revealed, total judgment time for 16 million is 96 million minutes. Now, there are 525600 minutes in a year. This would give a total judgment time for the whole Church of 184 years.

Now, I'm sure the Lord has this under control, and has a system that takes maybe 6 to 10 years is in place (or maybe much shorter). What I wanted to show was that in my finite mind there must be time factored into the logistics that might put the rapture at up to ten years before the Great Tribulation.

My figures should now be wiped out as this was pure speculation. But there is a logistical element to be considered - if not adhered to. The Bible is a book of figures and a Book of perfectly practical timing. This took 400 years - for example;

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. (Ge 15:13–16)

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I did address your argument, the only covenant between man and God is the blood on Calvary

I'm fully aware of your beliefs, it's called classical dispensationalism, Darby, Adulterer C.I. Scofield, and his 1909 reference Bible, also his  prodigy Lewis S. Chaffer in Dallas theological cemetary

Hoc I was bound by the same for 20 years, sitting in the Calvary Chapel pew shouting amen, deceived by "Christian Zionism", never studying or understanding the foundations of dispensationalism

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

No you did not counter my argument. It was from Galatians and Hebrews. And now I add the fact that it was called, by Jehovah Himself, "The Everlasting Covenant" (Gen.17:7, 13, 19). He repeated that with Isaac and Jacob and in Luke 1:72-73 it is called by Zacharias, under inspiration, "His HOLY Covenant".

There is a very fine tactic used in Christian circles today. We paint a box black and write "Darby" on it. Then we repeatedly slander Darby and make his name black by propaganda and not facts. Then, anyone who does not agree with us on another subject, gets put in the black Darby box - also without coherent arguments. It's very effective because the modern Pastor is too busy managing the tithes he collected to teach the Covenants to his congregation (yes, that's what they call it even though it is the Lord's Flock).

You have entered a discussion about the rapture and made your main argument brother Scofield's adultery. In every one of your beliefs you have been met by a coherent argument. These you dismiss without comment and reach for one of the black boxes. May I suggest something. Don't waste your time calling others false teachers. Out-argue them and all will automatically see that they got it wrong. There are dozens of young and unschooled Christians out there. They've heard something, watched a Hollywood movie, or read Hal Lindsey's fiction on it. They are not false teachers. They are searching Christians who need to be able to chew on an argument for five years before they can accept or reject it.

[The Light]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its Pre 70th week Rapture to be technical. That is why I say those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Church Age who are Raptured out of GREAT TRIBULATION, not of of the Greatest Ever Troubles.

Those seen in Revelation 7:9-17 are both the Church that is raptured before the seals are opened and the seed of the woman, Israel, that are raptured at the 6th seal.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No one will be Raptured DURING the 70th week, they are all Judged in Rev. 20:4 AFTER Jesus' return. 

Incorrect. There is a rapture at the 6th seal when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth as seen in Matthew 24

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The rapture at the 6th seal is also seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The fig tree has two harvests.

There is also a grain harvest and a fruit harvest.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

There can and is a Pre Greatest Every Troubles, but most people THINK the 70th week is that period, it is not, the last 3.5 years is the greatest ever troubles. But ALL Times are Tribulation on this earth.

You are confusing the last 3.5 years as the wrath of God because of what is written in Daniel 12. The wrath of God only lasts one year not 3.5 years. The geeat tribulation is upon the people of Daniel and is over before the wrath of God begins.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture

The church will be present on this earth to be eyewitnesses of (The Great Tribulation) and (The Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in the heavens as seen below

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

You can be one of those that see His coming to Armageddon. That is, if you miss the rapture, then somehow stay alive during the days of tribulation. Why not rather pray to be found worthy to escape those days of great tribulation? It is your choice.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You address an interesting point. The events of 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 put our "being gathered" quite close to the Beast's reign. But the Type of missing the universal judgment is Noah. And there, God commanded they enter the Ark 7 days before the deluge was let loose.

Then there is perhaps another indication of an early rapture. It is the TIME that or Lord needs to judge millions of Christians. Lets say that there are 8 billion people on earth. Let's say 1% are Christians (more like 1‰). Let's be pessimistic and take the pro mille. That makes 8 million Christians alive at His Coming. Say, the number of people who have lived and died since Pentecost is also 8 billion. That gives another 8 million dead Christians. Total - 16 million

Now the Lord promised that all secrets would be exposed at judgment. That would normally mean a public (before the Church) account of your works. If each saint got 5 minutes to tell and the others got 1 minute to appreciate the secret things revealed, total judgment time for 16 million is 96 million minutes. Now, there are 525600 minutes in a year. This would give a total judgment time for the whole Church of 184 years.

Now, I'm sure the Lord has this under control, and has a system that takes maybe 6 to 10 years is in place (or maybe much shorter). What I wanted to show was that in my finite mind there must be time factored into the logistics that might put the rapture at up to ten years before the Great Tribulation.

My figures should now be wiped out as this was pure speculation. But there is a logistical element to be considered - if not adhered to. The Bible is a book of figures and a Book of perfectly practical timing. This took 400 years - for example;

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. (Ge 15:13–16)

If we go by John's Revelation timeline, and add in Paul's rapture information that the rapture will come just before wrath, the rapture will then take place between the 5th and 6th seals, and the 70th week will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. It would then be 3.5 years before the man of sin is revealed.

I suspect there will be only days between the 6th and 7th seals. It is not written in so many words, but without a doubt it will be 1260 days or 42 months from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet.