Enoch, Elija, & Jesus

[Michael37]

12 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

What is this, third heaven?

2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 

If you search this site and Google it you will find plenty of information on the three heavens.

The heaven of heavens is mentioned in Scripture 7 times.

[Neighbor]

Hi,

May I inject on the conversation for a moment. I believe it( The third heaven) to be the place mentioned elsewhere within the Bible but particularly within the book Hebrews ..."for it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." Regarding Yeshua.

That being the dwelling place of God, the third heaven, of which Paul was taken to whether bodily or not he did not know.

  

 

 

[Anne2]

7 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,

May I inject on the conversation for a moment. I believe it( The third heaven) to be the place mentioned elsewhere within the Bible but particularly within the book Hebrews ..."for it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." Regarding Yeshua.

That being the dwelling place of God, the third heaven, of which Paul was taken to whether bodily or not he did not know.

  

 

 

The bosom of Abraham, was a compartment of the heavens in Judaism? So was sheol. 

Lu 16:23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Abode of the righteous dead[edit]

Judaism

 

[Kaio-Ken]

@Neighbor The 3rd heaven is indeed where gods throne is. With the 1st heaven being our sky.

 

[ChristB4us]

29 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,

May I inject on the conversation for a moment. I believe it( The third heaven) to be the place mentioned elsewhere within the Bible but particularly within the book Hebrews ..."for it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." Regarding Yeshua.

That being the dwelling place of God, the third heaven, of which Paul was taken to whether bodily or not he did not know.

Paul was testifying "indirectly" about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation.  It was not Paul that was taken to the third heaven, but John was.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

[ChristB4us]

47 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

What is this, third heaven?

2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 

Paul was speaking "indirectly" about the apostle John and the Book of Revelations.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

So John was in the third Heaven where Jesus has ascended to which is God's throne and Paul saying "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter," is due to the emphasis about what was written in the Book of Revelation as not to add or subtract from.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So this is why I believe Paul was referring to the apostle John and the Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 and that third heaven being God's throne where Jesus has ascended to as to where He will be receiving us soon as firstfruits at the rapture event for all those abiding in Him by His help and by His grace.

[Michael37]

14 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Paul was testifying "indirectly" about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation.  It was not Paul that was taken to the third heaven, but John was.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The context points to Paul speaking of his own experience in such a way to counter allegations of boastfulness. 

Paul did receive visions and was given revelations, and to keep him from becoming prideful of these, God allowed him to be buffeted by a messenger from Satan, something he willingly endured as a thorn in the flesh once he knew the Divine reasoning for it.

The revelatory experience John had on Patmos occurred after Paul had written his letters to the Corinthians.

Blessings from Michael37.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

The context points to Paul speaking of his own experience in such a way to counter allegations of boastfulness. 

Paul did receive visions and was given revelations, and to keep him from becoming prideful of these, God allowed him to be buffeted by a messenger from Satan, something he willingly endured as a thorn in the flesh once he knew the Divine reasoning for it.

The revelatory experience John had on Patmos occurred after Paul had written his letters to the Corinthians.

Blessings from Michael37.

Not sure how you can say that Paul was "not" referring to himself in the second, third, and fourth verses.  The first verse and then afterwards, yeah, but he used a pronoun to defer from himself as well as referring to a man he knew.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

But I agree that afterwards, Paul was speaking about himself for why he was given a thorn in the flesh to prevent others from thinking more highly of him than they ought to think because of all those revelations that came from the Lord through him.

I believe that thorn in the flesh was him hearing voices in his head as describing it as messengers of Satan to buffet him in the flesh because poor eyesight or an injury would hardly prevent anyone from thinking higher of him than they ought to think but hearing voices...?, that would do it.

Edited April 3, 2023 by ChristB4us

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

What is this, third heaven?

2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 

God is a God of order. To maintain order He institutes government. In government you have hierarchy. Although within the Triune God all three are equal, they have an hierarchy (John 5:36 e.g.). Among angels, Michael is less than Lucifer. He must appeal to God (Jude 9). Though they are enemies, Michael must uphold the hierarchy.

By stating that there is a third heaven God immediately implies that there are at least four heavens. The "third" implies first and second. Then there is "heaven of the heavens" (Deut 10:4 etc.) - giving at least another heaven - four. It could be more, but not less than four.

[Your closest friendnt]

27 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

The bosom of Abraham, was a compartment of the heavens in Judaism? So was sheol. 

Lu 16:23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Abode of the righteous dead[edit]

Judaism

 

This is not according to scriptures in all the books of the bible and it is not the beliefs of the Jews or the Pharisees and other Jewish sects... but as you mentioned there are 

 

3 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

The context points to Paul speaking of his own experience in such a way to counter allegations of boastfulness. 

Paul did receive visions and was given revelations, and to keep him from becoming prideful of these, God allowed him to be buffeted by a messenger from Satan, something he willingly endured as a thorn in the flesh once he knew the Divine reasoning for it.

The revelatory experience John had on Patmos occurred after Paul had written his letters to the Corinthians.

Blessings from Michael37.

After all the disciples had died...physical death...the death of the earthly body.  

Letting the earth have what was asking for the physical body of anyone...God does not want the Physical body of anyone after his physical death and the Devil also does not want the physical body of man after it's death...

While man is alive it is another matter...

Paul is telling believers that the man can exist in separation of his physical body for a period of time...

In the Spirit...the man without the physical body in some place and the Physical body of man in another place....before the man dies physically...and the Spirit man returning to his body...

This cannot be denied because they are people who are trained to do that...and in some native religions this is part of their religious practices....

Like the religion of some tribes in the Amazon jungle where a group of missionaries were murdered and the wife one of them went back to them as a missionary together with her son and teach them the Gospel and many believed  and some became missionaries to other tribes...

And it was part of their testimony that it was one of their religious practices to do that....and he said something that got my attention and also his attention after he heard the Gospel...

He said that when they got close to a city where a very bright light was radiating from it and very happy songs were heard from that place that they were not aloud to go closer...he said when he heard the Gospel that it tribe a horde about that place and he wanted that...

You can searched and find out for your self... but I met the man my self when he spoke in some church and I met the man who took part in the rais that murder the missionaries that faithful day in the Amazon jungle...a missionary now himself...that was twenty years ago and he was very old...

I was surprised to find out that they were of a small statue maybe less than five feet...and perhaps because of his age he had lost some bone...he looked very fragile...that I felt sorry for him.... but that was his testimony...and in that church the little girl in the Vietnam war in the picture running away without any clothes from the napalm bombs visited this church...she said that she was adopted by some missionary ministers...