Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Vine Abider]

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Good stuff. It's lovely when the Lord lights a lamp of revelation in us.

I think I've mentioned it before, but our battle is different to Israel. Israel, being of Abraham's flesh and by their flesh Messiah came, fight, or fought, fleshly enemies. Then again, when it comes to spirit enemies, God hands it over to angels, except in one area. That is, who is your source? Let's take three persons who faced this. I'll reverse their historic placement to give the credit to our Lord Jesus.

In all his conflicts while on earth, our Lord Jesus sought to avoid physical conflict. As a baby he is taken to Egypt and makes no attempt to thwart Herod. He escapes every attempt on His life with no casualties on the enemy's side, and offers no resistance to His capture and torture. But scripture says that He defeated the devil by death (Heb.2:14). This s most unusual. The death of one of two antagonists usually heralds victory for the one still standing. The explanation lies in the wilderness.

In the wilderness, weakened to the uttermost by a 40 day fast, alone and unnoticed, He is accosted by the devil. In three things is He tempted.

1. He is tempted with bread - a sorely needed commodity. He would commit no sin to make bread by miracle. But He had been driven to His predicament by a Spirit and he would wait for that Spirit's decision as to relief. He refused to be the SOURCE of relief.

2. He is tempted by His position. It says that He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Men seek adoration and some is legitimate. But it is no sin when God requires and received adoration. It was His legal portion to be famous and admired. He could accept it by declaring Himself, and He could do many wondrous things to earn it. But He waits for the FATHER to glorify Him. Even now, some 2,000 years later He is slandered and reviled, yet He does nothing. But the day wil come when He comes in the glory of the FATHER.

3. He is tempted by the horror He faced. He is, by default, Maker, Owner and Heir to the creation. He could summon and army and occupy it - anytime. But the Father had put a small corner of the creature in the hands of Adam - the earth, and Adam had given it away to its previous governor. He could take it back by three means. (i) Militarily. He could get His army of angels to rip it from Satan. (ii) He could pay the devil's price and bow His knee to Satan. Or, (iii) He could pay for Adam who lost it. This third option would entail paying Adam's account in full, a horror that He would gladly avoid. A horror that he asked to miss in Gethsemane.

Jesus defeated the devil by waiting for, and paying a horror for, RECEIVING THE KINGDOM AT THE HAND OF HIS FATHER.

Abraham is next. In his decision to offer Lot the choice of Land, the refusal to take the spoils from the Sodomite kings, him paying and not accepting, as a gift, his burial field, and his belief that he would receive the Land despite death at the hand of Him Who was able to raise the dead, showed all that Abraham would wait for God to give Him his desires. God would be His source. Abraham died, "... not having received the Promises", but waited on HIM, "... who prepares a City for them"

Now we contrast these two with Eve. She is offered the same, in principle, as our Lord. Eve was not hungry, but she saw that the forbidden Tree was "good for food". She had everything except the fruit of a Tree that would kill her, and yet desired it because it looked good. And though Eve was "bone and flesh" of the one made in the image and likeness of God (Adam), she sought to be wise. This would have made her famous like Solomon, or even better, like God Himself. Despite God's Word, she received the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil FROM ANOTHER than Jehovah. SHE MISTRUSTED HER SOURCE. She tacitly agreed that God was an unreliable source.

Thus, the only and reasonable battle tactic against Satan is the denial of any other SOURCE than Jehovah. Our Lord Jesus defeated Satan by denying Himself and by His Word - His testimony that was aligned with God's Word. This cost Him His life - His shed blood. Likewise us. Our life might be a wilderness. Jesus was "driven" there - hungry, lonely, forgotten and rejected. But He was unwavering. He would rather die than mistrust the wisdom of His Father. He loved the Father more than His own "SOUL-LIFE". He set His hope on Him and His Word. So the Man-Child; 

 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev.12:11)

Thanks bro - really appreciate your elaboration of source here!  And then finishing your post with Rev 12:11 made it so clear: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. And, as you know, the Greek word for "lives" here is "psuche" which is referring to psychological or soul life, as opposed to bios/flesh or the seen life.  The temptation of Jesus by the devil in the wilderness was much about the soul life.

Rev 12:11 has become my favorite verse of late.  There is so much here - it's one of those verses that really encompasses and defines the Christian life.  It all starts with the blood - then we testify of what He has done for us - and we don't take our source in anything, including what our souls could seek, other than God Himself!

[WilliamL]

On 5/20/2023 at 9:51 AM, Vine Abider said:

This passage in Luke 10 had always bothered me a little. The thing that bothered me was the Lord saying he watched Satan fall, as if it was something in the past. But we know that Satan, in this current age, still has access to the heavens, where he accuses us day and night.  ...  What are your thoughts?

This is a difficult passage to translate, not only to understand. The verb is an aorist participle, probably best interpreted "having fallen," possibly "falling." (Participles are -ing verbs.)

My suspicion, from my study of the three heavens, is that Satan has progressively been cast down over the ages from higher heaven to lower heaven. The Rev. 12 casting-down will come when he will be unable to remain even in the lowest (this world's) heaven, where he is currently "the archon of the power of the air." Eph. 2:2

That casting down will come just before we "meet the Lord in [the] air." 1 Thes. 4:17 Which is to say, at that time the current place of Satan and his host will become occupied by Christ and his people.

The corresponding Exodus-era "types and shadows" event took place when [1] --

[1] After 40 days in the wilderness (the biblical period of trial and testing), the Israelites were attacked by the Israelite-hating Amalekites. Then –

Ex. 17:9-10, 13, 16 Moses…went up to the top of the hill…with the rod of God in his hand. … So Joshua/Yeshua defeated Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. … Because a hand was lifted up to the throne of the LORD…

Jasher 81:53 [Amalek] brought with him…magicians and conjurers…

Magicians and conjurers of the Old Testament correspond to “false christs and false prophets…showing great signs and wonders” in the End Times. Matt. 24:24

[2] Acts 1:3, 9, 11-12; 7:55 Forty days [after his resurrection, Jesus] was taken up…into heaven…from the Mount of Olives…[to] stand at the right hand of God.

Psalm 110:1-2; 2:9 The LORD said unto my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” The LORD shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. ... “You shall break them with a rod of iron.”

At his Ascension, Jesus/Yeshua received power “at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him.” 2 Peter 3:22

[3] Rev. 2:26-27 “He who overcomes…to him will give power over the nations: ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron’…as I also have received from my Father.”

Rev. 12:5 [The Woman] brought forth a Manchild, who [is] to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. ¹

Thereafter, Satan and his angelic host, the enemy/“accuser of our brethren…[is] cast down…overcome…by the blood of the Lamb and by the Word [Rod] of their testimony…” Rev. 12:10-11

So. 1) Moses ascended in type to the throne of God, holding the rod of God, thereby overcoming his people’s enemies.

2) Jesus likewise, in actuality, in his day.

3) The Manchildren likewise in the End Times.

All at the end of the tribulation periods of their peoples.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/861-the-great-tribulation-and-the-great-deception/

 

[Vine Abider]

I'm reading Watchman Nee's book, The Glorious Church. I picked it up to read the chapter on the man-child, but have started reading the rest of the book too as it all ties together.

In the first chapter, this caught my eye this morning:

We should never presume that God's purpose is to merely save us from hell that we may enjoy the blessings of heaven. We must remember that God intends man to succeed His Son in the exercise of His authority on the earth,  God wants to accomplish something, but He will not do it Himself; He wants us to do it.  When we have done it, then God will have attained His purpose.  God desires to obtain a group of men who will do His work here on this earth, that God may rule on earth through man.

And that is why the God-Man came, to redeem us back to God's original intention for us!  Now Christ lives in us to make us overcomers and accomplish the purpose of dominion over the enemy.  His glory through us!

[phreSXicthaxlor]

Remember  -  concerning the   Man - Child 

the  Man - Child was born to  the  Woman  of  Revelation   12

of the  Symbolic  woman who bears the  _   Man - Child 

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the  remnant  of  her  seed,    which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If    the   Man - Child  whom  is  born  to  the   Woman,  the woman   whom  also  has  \  more seed  -     plural  seed  /  more  children  - the  remnant  of  her  seed.

,1.   this could apply to  Mary   and  Jesus   ?     but why would this passage be directing attention to  the  other  seed,  children of Mary, the siblings of Jesus.

,2.     or  if  Israel  as  a  nation  would  be  the  symbolic Woman  with  Jesus  her seed and also the  remnant  of  the  seed  Israel

,3.      unless we take the Roman Catholic approach which would force the passage to point to the followers of  Mary  as  the  children  of  Mary or the  remnant  of   Mary's   seed  
 

I go with choice  #     ,2.

 

[Vine Abider]

3 hours ago, phreSXicthaxlor said:

Remember  -  concerning the   Man - Child 

the  Man - Child was born to  the  Woman  of  Revelation   12

of the  Symbolic  woman who bears the  _   Man - Child 

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the  remnant  of  her  seed,    which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If    the   Man - Child  whom  is  born  to  the   Woman,  the woman   whom  also  has  \  more seed  -     plural  seed  /  more  children  - the  remnant  of  her  seed.

,1.   this could apply to  Mary   and  Jesus   ?     but why would this passage be directing attention to  the  other  seed,  children of Mary, the siblings of Jesus.

,2.     or  if  Israel  as  a  nation  would  be  the  symbolic Woman  with  Jesus  her seed and also the  remnant  of  the  seed  Israel

,3.      unless we take the Roman Catholic approach which would force the passage to point to the followers of  Mary  as  the  children  of  Mary or the  remnant  of   Mary's   seed  
 

I go with choice  #     ,2.

 

Thanks for your response. Please read the post by @AdHoc (from April 12th) in the 2nd page of this thread.  In that post he gives a very effective run-down of the different views and the problems with each.  After looking at that and considering the points, please come back with any questions, comments or general fellowship you might have about it.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Vine Abider
Clarity

[AdHoc]

@Vine Abider @WilliamL @phreSXicthaxlor

I judge that the matter of Satan's ejection from heaven is not complicated.

In Genesis 1:26-28 the council of the Triune God is, "let THEM subdue and let THEM rule". God has joined Himself to mankind, and in the fashion of the rest of the Bible, lets His creature do delegated work. It is clear to all that our Lord Jesus can achieve everything by Himself, but His council is to do it corporately.

It is also clear from multiple statements of scripture that our Lord Jesus has set a time at the END of the age at which He consummates all things in one magnificent chess-like maneuver. The end of the times of the Gentiles, the recovery of Israel, the presentation of His Bride, the Wedding Feast all fall into a span of less than a year.

Now, the statement from Luke 10 over Satan's fall is simple and correct for One who was before Abraham, and Who is the Firstborn of all the creature. In His capacity as God-Man, everything can be seen by Him as having happened already. he know the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning. He can truly say that He witnessed what we have still to wait for.

Let us not forget that we do not enter combat with angels. The displacement of Satan in Revelation 12 is Michael's business. And Michael is the angel of the host of Israel. Our role is "salt and light". We get an inkling in 2nd Thessalonians 2. Something hinders the man of sin. By process of elimination it must be the Overcomers still on earth. I like manner, the Man-Child displaces Satan in heaven. Light drives away darkness. We do not battle Satan, but the presence of the Overcomers makes Satan's Citadel untenable.

 

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The end of the times of the Gentiles, the recovery of Israel, the presentation of His Bride, the Wedding Feast all fall into a span of less than a year.

Upon what evidence do you base this "one year" conclusion?

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Upon what evidence do you base this "one year" conclusion?

First let me say that I don't dogmatically maintain this statement. But I will justify its thought.

The end of Daniel's last seven is God's wrath at Armageddon. This battle ends the 1260 days of Tribulation, and it also ends the Gentile government all over the world.

During this 1260 days the Church will be judged at the Bema. According to Revelation 19 it will be decided at the Bema who makes it into the Wedding Feast and Who prepared and now wears the Garment of the Bride. The same company who make up the Bride are also Christ's army for Armageddon later in the Chapter. And the same company are the new kings of the earth (Lk.19:17-19).

Thus, almost on the same day Gentile rule is ended, Gentile military might is destroyed by an Army that also makes up the Bride of Christ and who will rule with Christ. All is prepared for the Kingdom.

Since the Bride is decided, the Overcomers decided, the Church judged and the age of grace over, Acts 15:14-16 can be implemented - the recovery of the House of David. Matthew 24:28-31 shows that this recovery is immediately after "the Tribulation of those days". Our Lord Jesus appears in the clouds like lightening, descends to Mount Olives and as soon as Armageddon is over, sends His angels to gather "those dispersed to the four winds" - Israel.

I judge that from Christ appearing over Mount Olives to the angels bringing dispersed Israel back to Canaan needs less than a month. But to be conservative with such statements, I gave a year.

What is your calculation?

[WilliamL]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The end of Daniel's last seven is God's wrath at Armageddon. This battle ends the 1260 days of Tribulation, and it also ends the Gentile government all over the world.

Daniel's 70th week ended in 73 AD. But even if you try to make it end times, nothing at all in the passage says anything about God's wrath. Pure spec without substance to back it up.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

What is your calculation?

40 years from the 6th Seal to Armageddon & Zech. 4. When Israel is shown to be a pastoral land, and all the invaders are riding on horses. Exek. 38-39

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2753-egypt-part-1-its-coming-40-year-desolation/

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel's 70th week ended in 73 AD. But even if you try to make it end times, nothing at all in the passage says anything about God's wrath. Pure spec without substance to back it up.

40 years from the 6th Seal to Armageddon & Zech. 4. When Israel is shown to be a pastoral land, and all the invaders are riding on horses. Exek. 38-39

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2753-egypt-part-1-its-coming-40-year-desolation/

I doubt it. Daniel 9 sets the end of the 70th seven as the time of Israel's recovery - not destruction.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness ...

And Ezekiel 38 into 39, Magog's rebellion, according to Revelation 20, is 1,000 years after Christ's return - not 43 years after His death. The 1,000 years is not only the reign of the martyrs (have you seen martyrs reigning?), but it is the time of Satan's confinement. If I look at the world today, I'd be hard-pressed to believe Satan is locked away and the nations subject ot the rule of the rod of iron. But even more difficult is your calculation if you have Christ cut off at the end of the 69th seven, and seven years later the Beast reigning in the Holy Place.

But, to each his own. Go well.