rapture?

[farouk]

1 hour ago, BibleWords said:

The rapture is real!  The Bible teaches it and that it will occur prior to the great tribulation.

It is a secret coming.  Paul called it a be mystery.  It will happen as a thief in the night when Christ comes for His church.

And yes, you would know the tribulation had started because it is different than any other time has ever been in history.  Fortunately, if you are saved you will be gone to the Father’s house.

John 14:1-4 is one of the Scriptures which teach a pre-trib rapture.  Jesus starts out with “let not your heart be troubled” in verse 1.  He was reassuring His disciples that everything would be ok.  He did not say, sorry you may go through the worst time the earth has ever seen but don’t worry, right before the time of wrath I’ll come and get you out.  It is called the time of Jacob’s troubles for a reason.  It is not the time of the suffering church.  We will not be here.

The problem with most confusion on the rapture is in not seeing that they’re two distinct comings.  There is not just one coming.  The characteristics of the two comings are completely different.

At the rapture Jesus comes in the air and never to earth.  We are caught up in the clouds with the resurrected believers.  1 Thess. 4:16-18 is very clear.

No mid-trib.  No post-trib.  No partial rapture.  No pre-wrath.  No judgement.

The rapture is a time of catching away the church, not of out pouring wrath.

The rapture is our blessed hope, a promise of comfort.  1 Thess. 4:18 “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”  There would be no comfort if the church was to go through the tribulation.  That’s not comforting.  No, we escape through the rapture.

Also, John Nelson Darby did not start the rapture doctrine.  Jesus did, followed by Paul.  That is like saying Billy Graham started the doctrine of evangelism.  These men were proponents of these doctrines but they did not originate with them.  They originated in the Bible.

There are two distinct comings of Christ at the end.  They are the rapture and the second coming.

I think that as well as the What? about the rapture, when we consider the Who? it can add clarity: whom does it involve? (1 Cor. 10.32) gives three basic categories of people in the world.)

[LiveWire]

Good Thread!

Edited April 13, 2023 by LiveWire

[ChristB4us]

19 hours ago, LiveWire said:

I personally believe, if tomorrow began day one of the 7 year Tribulation, we would not know the difference because we are pre-Wrath, not pre-Tribulation.   Pre-Tribulation actually is not Scripturally sound, Pre-Wrath is what Jesus preached.

 

Jesus said, there would be marriage, normal life, nothing chaotic in the "beginning" of Tribulation.   But then He would expand and reveal that sometime after those days begin, days would grow to get harder for even the Elect.  So, Jesus was showing us a gradual but steady process from normal to becoming hectic.   Jesus put Birthing Pangs right up to possible year 2 or later before the actual Birth of Wrath.  the Man of Sin don't even reveal himself to well after midpoint and then the Mark and Number come into play.

 

I am 100% pro-pre-Wrath!

If pre wrath, how then can anyone say they cannot know the day nor the hour when halfway thru the great tribulation is when the son of perdition reveals himself?  Then from there, count the 3 and a half years later for when Christ comes as the King of kings.  That is hardly Him coming as a thief in the night, right?

So His warnings are for the latter days we are living in now where the cares of this life can be a snare to believers that they would not want to leave; Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36

I know the two witnesses are killed half way thru it, resurrected, and raptured alone, note verse 12 of Revelation 11:1-13 but the rapture Jesus is warning believers about in being ready or else be left behind has to be before that fiery calamity that comes on the third of the earth ( Revelation 8:7 & Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 17:26-37 ) for why the time of temptation comes to try all upon the earth to take the mark of the beast or not to survive during the coming New World Order for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world.

Edited April 14, 2023 by ChristB4us

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

Jesus says when He will return and gather His "elect" >

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" >

You can check Matthew 24:29-31.

He does not here say He will return immediately before, but immediately after. Plus, no scripture directly says Jesus will come back just before the end-time tribulation.

In case we are present while God's wrath judgments come upon the evil, our Father is able to control Himself so His wrath things do not hurt us.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were thrown into that fiery furnace, but those flames did not hurt them. But those same flames did kill the soldiers who threw them in there. Like this, God is able to manage who is and is not affected by His wrath judgments.

But there are pre-trib believers who say that Jesus has to come before the great tribulation so they can avoid God's wrath judgments of the trib. But this is not a Biblical reason for a pre-trib return of Jesus, because our Father is able to control Himself in how His wrath works. He is not like human abusive fathers who can hurt anyone who gets near to them.

 

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

Jesus says when He will return and gather His "elect" >

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" >

You can check Matthew 24:29-31.

He does not here say He will return immediately before, but immediately after. Plus, no scripture directly says Jesus will come back just before the end-time tribulation.

In case we are present while God's wrath judgments come upon the evil, our Father is able to control Himself so His wrath things do not hurt us.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were thrown into that fiery furnace, but those flames did not hurt them. But those same flames did kill the soldiers who threw them in there. Like this, God is able to manage who is and is not affected by His wrath judgments.

But there are pre-trib believers who say that Jesus has to come before the great tribulation so they can avoid God's wrath judgments of the trib. But this is not a Biblical reason for a pre-trib return of Jesus, because our Father is able to control Himself in how His wrath works. He is not like human abusive fathers who can hurt anyone who gets near to them.

 

[Workman]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:20 AM, JohnD said:

I recently checked out... 
...He took over a national apologetics ministry when its founder passed away almost 40 years ago... 

This fellow I refer to... an eastern location in the U.S. 

He has since converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

The fellow I mention... 

It's pretty obvious that "the fellow" you are referring to is Hank Hanegraaff, aka "The Bible Answer Man" radio show.  The founder was Dr. Walter Martin, with whom I had the honor of speaking to during the program in the 80s.  I don't know much about Eastern Orthodox Christianity, except that you're required to stand during the service, something this old guy couldn't handle. 

It's ok to use their names, just leave out the gossip.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Workman

[LiveWire]

4 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

If pre wrath, how then can anyone say they cannot know the day nor the hour when halfway thru the great tribulation is when the son of perdition reveals himself?  Then from there, count the 3 and a half months later for when Christ comes as the King of kings.  That is hardly Him coming as a thief in the night, right?

So His warnings are for the latter days we are living in now where the cares of this life can be a snare to believers that they would not want to leave; Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36

I know the two witnesses are killed half way thru it, resurrected, and raptured alone, note verse 12 of Revelation 11:1-13 but the rapture Jesus is warning believers about in being ready or else be left behind has to be before that fiery calamity that comes on the third of the earth ( Revelation 8:7 & Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 17:26-37 ) for why the time of temptation comes to try all upon the earth to take the mark of the beast or not to survive during the coming New World Order for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world.

Daniel 12:

11 “From the time that the daily burnt offering is taken away, and abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 

12 Happy is the one who keeps waiting, and reaches the 1,335 days.

 

reaches the 1,335 days.

[Dennis1209]

Starting in Revelation chapter six, the seven-year tribulation begins with the seal judgments, the way I see things. These events have been seen and experienced on Earth before. A few questions:

·         Who is opening these seal judgments?

·         If these are not the wrath and anger of God, what are they?

·      The church is mentioned 19 times in Revelation chapters 1-3. Suddenly there are no more mentions of the church, and the narrative abruptly switches to the children of thy people (Israel) and the earth dwellers; what happened to the church?

Daniel 12:1 (KJV) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

[ChristB4us]

9 hours ago, LiveWire said:

Daniel 12:

11 “From the time that the daily burnt offering is taken away, and abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 

12 Happy is the one who keeps waiting, and reaches the 1,335 days.

 

reaches the 1,335 days.

I agree.  Had to edit "months" to "years" when I had earlier posted "3 and a half months later".

But the point here is how can Jesus come as a thief in the night if mid trib rapture or post trib, even?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  .....continuing in next chapter...

1 Thessalonians 5: 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter confirms Paul's words below.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Jesus said the same thing below;

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I thank you for sharing.  Just pointing out something in scripture for why I cannot see how His coming as a thief in the night can happen mid trib or post trib thus He can come at any moment for why He is warning believers to be ready in the times we are living now that is liken to the days of Noah that would not be like the days mid trib or post trib as referring to the great tribulation period.

[LiveWire]

6 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I agree. 

I thank you for sharing.  Just pointing out something in scripture for why I cannot see how His coming as a thief in the night can happen mid trib or post trib thus He can come at any moment for why He is warning believers to be ready in the times we are living now that is liken to the days of Noah that would not be like the days mid trib or post trib as referring to the great tribulation period.

We understand the doctrines include pre-mid-post tribulation.   Since I see the Word of God revealing pre-Wrath, I can see a secret Rapture in-between these periods of before/mid/after.   Specifically, I see between pre and mid tribulation because it is clearly pre-Wrath.   And somewhere at around year 2, people, even the Elect, would notice the days growing more difficult.

Edited April 14, 2023 by LiveWire