613 Laws : We Read in the New Testament about Sins that will Keep Us from Heaven : How do those Sins connect to the 613 Laws?

[Who me]

613 Laws : We Read in the New Testament about Sins that will Keep Us from Heaven : How do those Sins connect to the 613 Laws?

 Define what you mean by 613 laws? example you could say how many laws there are in America, numbering all the federal laws, each state laws and talk about the total number of laws required to be obeyed by an American.

But it would be incorrect.

 

There are three types of biblical laws, the ceremonial, to do with temple sacrifice and worship, the civil laws about getting along with other people and the moral laws about living to please God.

 

Which laws are you referring to?

 

We all need to remember it is the failure to keep one law that keeps one out of heaven, it is why the bible labels us All as Sinners, we have All sinned.

[R. Hartono]

19 hours ago, LiveWire said:

 LiveWire said:

6 What shall we say then? 

Are we to continue in sin so that grace may abound? 

2 May it never be!

That covers All 613 Laws 

 

Slibhin said:

Oh, you're mocking me. Gotcha.

 

LiveWire said:

Never!

That Verse has great meaning and literally shares your own views.

 

 

I am new here and have been trying to see from past post history the discussions You generally get involved in.   You are one person who believes in side by side comparison's of unfilled and fulfilled Prophecy.   And that led me to suggest that Christians do hold the majority of Core Values that Ha-Shem seeks and desires for His Own, even from a Yiddish perspective.

I welcome You to challenge me, to search the Word, to find where we connect at still.

You know, this is off track, but the historian and Church Father Jerome discovered an original Copy of Matthew written completely in the Hebrew Language.   Some Messianic Jews, believe the Copy they have, that for 40 years a man devoted his life to uncover, from reading Jerome's notes and wanting to prove it still exists or was recopied, is from those copies.   I don't know, but I do believe Jerome on this because other well known Church Fathers make the same claim.   But, in the majority of the Claims concerning the Hebrew Version of the Gospel of Matthew, most claim, Matthew revealed where Jesus taught portions of the Law to show the Connection the complete meaning of what the LAW-Prophets-Psalms truly mean in connection to the Son of Man, spoken in Daniel.

 

Anyways, I will take the heat.   If anything, it will make me a better Student.

Sin is sin, Law is Law. You know sins because there's Law.

 

[LiveWire]

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

@LiveWire

The law was not changed but fulfilled as Jesus fulfilled the law.

The sabbath day law is not null and void as it does still exist as a testimony that the Jews still cannot keep the law, but because Jesus Christ is in us and with us always is why we are guiltless.

In Matthew 12:1-8 KJV we find the Pharisees seeking to condemn His disciples for picking ears of corn on the sabbath to eat.

Jesus then refer to 2 incidents in the O.T. where the saints had profaned the sabbath but were guiltless because they were in the Temple.

Jesus then says "One greater than the Temple is here", meaning Himself for why His disciples were guiltless.

After salvation, our bodies become the temple of the Holy Spirit per 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.  Per the examination of our faith, Jesus Christ is in us per 2 Corinthians 13:5.

That is why we are not to judge any professing believer per respect of day or holy day or the sabbaths because Jesus Christ in us is able to make us stand.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

I never claimed the LAW was for Followers of the New Covenant.   I am asking, to know the true Spiritual Layers and Meaning behind the Messiah is found all throughout the Tanakh.   Everything, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, all Testify and describe every Detail we should be aware about concerning a multitude of ways how God has revealed Himself.

 

Ever read about the Temple structures, the specific details, the usage of one material and then overlapped by another.  Even when it was merely a Tent in the Wilderness.   But if we take these Details, apply to how Man would envision this, then how God would view it, we are getting a real glimpse of the Temple that is currently in Heaven right now.   You are not going to find such specifics in the New Testament.  And tell me, why would wanting to know what the Temple in Heaven looks like be a bad thing?   It isn't, but to discover that knowledge, does require the Tanakh (Old Testament).

 

A Follower of Christ, who has little knowledge of the Tanakh, is merely a Babe on Milk!

Edited May 11, 2023 by LiveWire

[ChristB4us]

45 minutes ago, LiveWire said:

I never claimed the LAW was for Followers of the New Covenant.   I am asking, to know the true Spiritual Layers and Meaning behind the Messiah is found all throughout the Tanakh.   Everything, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, all Testify and describe every Detail we should be aware about concerning a multitude of ways how God has revealed Himself.

Ever read about the Temple structures, the specific details, the usage of one material and then overlapped by another.  Even when it was merely a Tent in the Wilderness.   But if we take these Details, apply to how Man would envision this, then how God would view it, we are getting a real glimpse of the Temple that is currently in Heaven right now.   You are not going to find such specifics in the New Testament.  And tell me, why would wanting to know what the Temple in Heaven looks like be a bad thing?   It isn't, but to discover that knowledge, does require the Tanakh (Old Testament).

A Follower of Christ, who has little knowledge of the Tanakh, is merely a Babe on Milk!

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

That is what the meat of His words are for, discerning good and evil.  There is nothing about saying learn the Tanakh about the Temple in Heaven.  We will see the beauty of the Lord in His temple, God be willing.

Palm 27:4 One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in his temple. 5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. 6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord. 7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

Edited May 11, 2023 by ChristB4us

[Marathoner]

9 hours ago, LiveWire said:

A Follower of Christ, who has little knowledge of the Tanakh, is merely a Babe on Milk!

And yet they will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand (Romans 14). Be wary of unrighteous judgment, my friend. Do not slander a servant to their Master or He will curse you, and you will be found guilty (Proverbs 30).

It's good to remember the only requirement of the Lord toward His people, expressed to us in Jeremiah 7:23: "Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people; walk in all the ways I have commanded you, that all will be well for you."

Never forget that throughout time and space, many of us lacked access to the scriptures which we read and study today. Do you believe that God judges a man or woman on the basis of how much they know or don't know? Seeing as how the Lord is pleased to choose the lowly, the unlearned, and ignoble of this world in order to shame the mighty, noble, and wise of this world, I believe we all know the answer to that question. I do, for I was lowly and ignoble myself. 

[LiveWire]

2 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

And yet they will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand (Romans 14). Be wary of unrighteous judgment, my friend. Do not slander a servant to their Master or He will curse you, and you will be found guilty (Proverbs 30).

It's good to remember the only requirement of the Lord toward His people, expressed to us in Jeremiah 7:23: "Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people; walk in all the ways I have commanded you, that all will be well for you."

Never forget that throughout time and space, many of us lacked access to the scriptures which we read and study today. Do you believe that God judges a man or woman on the basis of how much they know or don't know? Seeing as how the Lord is pleased to choose the lowly, the unlearned, and ignoble of this world in order to shame the mighty, noble, and wise of this world, I believe we all know the answer to that question. I do, for I was lowly and ignoble myself. 

The Beauty of Salvation.   I do admit, and it's a process that's been happening since Noah and the Ark.   We don't see what God see's to the why's He thinks we are Capable of doing His Will for Him.  Ultimately speaking, many Christians do not progress much beyond the getting Saved Moment.   And then there are some who figured enough out to be able to Witness God first hand at His Word and His Ability.  But these people dig and seek for the Written Word wanting to understand and to gain any such knowledge to grab a closer Glimpse of just Who He is.   This Thread is for Them 

[The_Patriot21]

On 5/10/2023 at 10:12 AM, Slibhin said:

1. I'm not Ashkenazi and couldn't speak Yiddish if you put a gun to my head.

2. I'm not here to challenge anyone.

3. I stated Christians do not follow the Torah. You said they did and would "research". You did not explain how they follow the Torah.

4. I don't care what church fathers say, and I don't believe in the bible so quoting it is meaningless to me.

 

On 5/10/2023 at 10:12 AM, NConly said:

The 613 laws are not the law for New Covenant believers is my understanding.

I'm going to address a couple points here because they're tied together. 

First off, the 613 laws are still laws. Jesus didn't get rid of the law, Jesus fulfilled the law. There is a difference. The apostle Paul stated in Romans, that the law is indeed still in place in that the law defines what is-and what is not sin. So if the law says something is a sin, then it is a sin.

And Slib, let me address point 3, in that while I was not part of the original debate, there's a few ways we can take that.

By follow do you mean believe? Because christians do indeed believe in the Torah. In fact the Torah is one of my favorite parts of the Bible. I could study nothing but Genesis every day and never grow tired.

Or do you mean follow the actual law, as is outlined in Leviticus. To the letter. 

Which, no we don't. But neither do modern day jews, including yourself. When was the last time you journeyed to Jerusalem and offered a fatted calf or a unblemished sheep up as sacrifice?

Even putting the sacrifices aside do you follow it perfectly? Or do you mess up, and react to situations out of anger or selfishness?

Before you think I'm picking on you, I can assure you I'm not, see because I can't judge you-im guilty of not being able to live up to the laws standards myself. And as I addressed earlier, the law does still apply, it does indeed define what is sin, and what is not sin. 

So if I break the law, then therefore I sin and am not worthy to be in God's presence. We cannot be in sin, and in God's presence, this is something that is indeed made clear in the Torah, and reiterated in the new testament. (Romans 3:23, 6:23)

Under the Old covenant, that sin was atoned for by animal sacrifice. Blood had to be spilt to atone for the sin. If no blood is spilt, then no atonement was possible.

None of us are capable of following the law. We are all sinful creatures. As Paul said, I am chief among sinners. 

Thankfully, God gave us His only son as the perfect sacrifice, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices and atone for our sin with His blood. All we have to do is accept His free gift, and we will be covered by grace. 

Without that grace we are all doomed. I pray that you find it.

 

 

[LiveWire]

10 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

That is what the meat of His words are for, discerning good and evil.  There is nothing about saying learn the Tanakh about the Temple in Heaven.  We will see the beauty of the Lord in His temple, God be willing.

Palm 27:4 One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in his temple. 5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. 6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord. 7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

I love the Bible, everything about it.   You seem to have some reason to dislike parts of it.   You find some of it basically unnecessary.   I don't see it the same way   God gave me the ability to want to know all knowledgeable areas that Connect to Him.   From Him as God to him as what these Verses mean in Connection to the Prophesies foretold about Him.

Do you know the Heavenly Temple is another Example of Who and What God is as a Person, Being, God?

But that to you is non beneficial.   For me, I have grown in God to where His entire collection of Words are beneficial.   

[DeighAnn]

I think sometimes people leave out the basics because they know it so well that forget to set the foundation for those who might not so I thought I would do Foundation 101 for them, just skip unless you are just a babe in Christ.  I wouldn't trust MY NUMBERS here and I would check out all this stuff FOR MYSELF, if I didn't already know it.  Never take someones word EXCEPT GODS.  If it is written it is a precept of God, if it isn't it is a precept of man.  SIMPLE.  Nothing hidden that can't be found IN HIS WORDS.  



God chose a person/people - Abram/Abraham

GOD told Abraham your family is going into captivity for 4 generations, 400 years.  They became slaves of Egypt.  At the end of the 400 years, these million? slaves/people leave Egypt, RICH RICH RICH and have the SEA PARTED for them to begin their journey and off to freedom and to become a nation in the promised land they go (cept for the hiccups along the way)


A cazillion slaves.  Which of any of them KNOWS how to RUN A NATION, A Kingdom, A tribe, A city????  Besides Moses?  So, GOD GIVES 'laws to them', who until then have only known how EGYPT does it, PROMISE to serve God.  Hence all the laws from How do you rule and reign and punish and laws and 613 laws isn't that many when it comes to EVERYTHING even what the priests do.  


Might as well get to reading those laws because THY KINGDOM COME is going to NEED those who know the law to rule and reign.  

Has anyone ever considered that the JEWS who read the Old Test, when the 'vail' is lifted and the two sticks are made one that NOT ONLY ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE JUST AS MUCH 'FAITH' they are going to have ALL THE KNOWLEDGE, while Christians will have excuses on why they don't know anything or didn't believe the OLD was just as much for them.  


I am sure everyone already knows all this, so just a reminder for "some babe" in Christ who hasn't read the whole book precept on precept.... yet will think, THAT just might be a really good idea on how to learn who GOD is, on a much deeper level; like those who know the law...   

[ChristB4us]

6 hours ago, LiveWire said:

I love the Bible, everything about it.   You seem to have some reason to dislike parts of it.   You find some of it basically unnecessary.   I don't see it the same way   God gave me the ability to want to know all knowledgeable areas that Connect to Him.   From Him as God to him as what these Verses mean in Connection to the Prophesies foretold about Him.

Do you know the Heavenly Temple is another Example of Who and What God is as a Person, Being, God?

But that to you is non beneficial.   For me, I have grown in God to where His entire collection of Words are beneficial.   

My Dad that had told me at one time that he was reading that Lost Books of the Bible of mine and the Lord chastened him to read the Bible that he has available that he has not been reading.  He had thrown my book out.  I did not know he had gotten a hold of it and yet felt inclined to tell me that.  I was not upset because I did not value it either.

Just trust the Lord Jesus Christ to direct you away from vain & hollow pursuit, especially when it may lead you away into error.

The House of the Lord is where we shall see the beauty of the Lord in Heaven and in that House of the Lord, we shall enquire in His Temple.  

Palm 27:4 One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in his temple. 5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. 6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord. 7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

I do not see the Heavenly Temple as the Lord Himself when we were created in His image. 

I know our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, but for us to enquire of the Lord in His Temple in that House of the Lord,  the Lord is not confined to that Temple as being that Temple in the House of the Lord.  Unless the Father is there.

We prophesy in part and know in part, but once He brings us Home by His Son, we shall know all things face to face.