Rapture: to be or not to be?

[Shilohsfoal]

5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

AND on a wing of the temple he will set up the A/D  (Mid Week), as are the removal of sacrifice and offerings.  Don't cut the verse of short.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Don't add to the verse.

The verse goes like this.

 

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

 

In the middle of the week ,he will put an end to sacrifice.

It does not say in the middle of the week ,he will set up the abomination of desolation.

 

 

 

There are two events spoken of here and one amount of time.

Daniel 12

From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

 

In the midst of one week he puts an end to sacrifice.

then there is 1290

then the second event takes place.He will set up the abomination of desolation.

 

1290 is the end of the week.That is when there will be great tribulation,the likes of which has never been seen upon earth.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

 

Mathew 24

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

 

Jesus when speaking of the abomination of desolation literally quoted part of Daniel 12:1 in Mathew 24:21.

Daniel 12:1 is at the time of the end.At the end of the week.

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Sure I can. The question is not can I provide the scriptural evidence. The question is will you be able to see the undeniable evidence. Or will your doctrinal blinders override the truth.

OK, let's not get into the insult mode.  If you really do have unambiguous evidence from the Bible, just share it.  It's up to each person to grasp what is shared.  Don't demean YOURSELF by insinuating that I have blinders on or just can't comprehend, or whatever else is typically thrown out.

If you have actual evidence, just share.  Let me look at it, if you aren't afraid of having to defend it.

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Here is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. You should be familair with these verses. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. In blue you will see that this coming of Jesus is marked by the signs of the sun, moon, and stars.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What does the beginning of v.24 say?  'AFTER the tribulation'  So this passage is all about the Second Advent.  My point as well.

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Here is the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal. In blue you will see that it is also marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Most people think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the second advent when He returns to earth and set up His kingdom after Armageddon. However, the signs of the sun, moon and stars mark the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Undeniable evidence that so few see or understand.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

One tiny problem.  The 5th seal is at the beginning of the Tribulation, and 5 have already been opened.  So you think Jesus comes after the tribulation begins??  Then when He comes back AFTER the tribulation, that would have to be the THIRD Advent, but there aren't 3 advents.

You haven't shown Jesus coming during the Tribulation, even though you think He will.  You've only shown signs in the heavens, which can and will occur during the tribulation AND when He comes back.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus comes in Matthew 24 and sends His angels to gather the elect. This coming is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus comes at the 6th seal as marked by the exact same signs.

Such signs can occur during AND after the tribulation.  What is needed to prove your claim is a verse that unambigously describes Jesus coming in the clouds and taking resurrected believers back to heaven.  There aren't any.  That would be the ONLY unambiguous verse.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

Multiple harvests. Barley, wheat and fruit. Each harvest has first fruits, the main harvest and gleanigs.

Please show me where any of these harvests are tied to end times.  You know, unambiguous verses.

9 hours ago, The Light said:

Just as Jesus is first friuts of them that slept, the 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

Nice try.  But not unambiguous.  How about 1 Cor 15:23?

 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse is unambiguous.  The subject is resurrection, and the first part references both Jesus Christ and ALL believers in the words "each in turn".  iow, Jesus is first to receive the resurrection body that is immortal, glorified.  That means NONE of the examples in the OT or NT where dead people were raised back to life received a resurrection body.  ALL of them died again, as they lacked immortality.

Second, ONLY Jesus is referred to as "firstfruits" in regard to THE resurrection.  btw, Jesus ONLY referred to resurrection in the singular.  There aren't multiple resurrections, only one for believers, and one for unbelievers.

Third, the words "those who belong to Him" include EVERY believer from Adam forward.  So this verse proves that there will only be one resurrection, and it will include all believers from all time.  Since every believer does belong to Him.

Fourth, we know WHEN the singular resurrection will occur, which is "when He comes", a direct reference to the Second Advent.

Rev 20 mentions trib martyrs being resurrected, which is after the tribulation.  Doesn't have to mention everyone, since we have 1 Cor 15:23 that says all believers will be resurrected.

This is unambiguous.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

Are there any verses that unambiguously show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven?

Sure.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These verses do NOT say anything about Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  The fact that these "souls under the altar" are in heaven shows that they are the ones who have already died from Adam forward.  

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Saints that have already died and are already in heaven.

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Ditto.

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 19:1-8

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

I leff off v.1-7 and want to point out a significant point.  These are the people IN heaven getting ready to return with Christ at the Second Advent when Jesus sets up His Kingdom on earth.  That begins at v.11 and goes to the end of the chapter.

Please note the wording in v.7; "His wife HAS MADE herself ready".  This isn't about something 7 years prior, but she has just done it.

Now, you left out v.9, which is even more interesting:  Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Note the words "who ARE invited to the wedding supper".  Common thinking among pre-tribbers is that after Jesus takes all the believers to heaven, which will be BEFORE the tribulation, the wedding supper occurs THEN.

Well, if that were true, John would have written "who WERE invited to the wedding supper".  Since he wrote, "who ARE invited..." we KNOW that the wedding supper is ABOUT to occur.  But immediately after this we read about the same group in the same clothes (v.8 and v.14) accompanying Christ back to earth.

So we KNOW that the wedding supper will occur ON earth IN Christ's kingdom and every believer will attend in their glorified immortal resurrection bodies, all of which kicks off the MK.  And they will reign with, or serve the King throughout the MK!

This is unambiguous.  No verse refutes or contradicts any of this.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

It is all one verse. You missed that second AND, which ties the two together at the midpoint of the Week.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

No, I am not.  

I am saying just what I showed above.  

You are the one adding in "whatever amount of time you will see fit" for the Jewish harvest schedule of food

The rest of your quote was irrelevant to this matter.

Not really, How Large is the Owners field.  One day job, two day job, a weeks worth??? You were quoting Matt 13, 29,30.  This followed Matt 13 : 1-23.  All are about goods seed being scattered in different types of areas.  vs 24 - 30 describes the seed in the good soil.  Matt 13:37,38 - The sower is the Son of Man.  The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom (from when to when).  The weeds are the sons of the evil one trying to choke out the good seeds (from when to when).

The Lake of fire is the final burning process. Post Mill. Yes all the evil ones are gathered by His Angels to be cast into the LOF. At the End of the Age (which end of which Age -- Post Mill)

Even during the Mill there is disobedience; Rain will not fall on the lands of those who do not come and worship the Lord Almighty on the Feast of Tabernacles.  A broken command.  Many who come out of the 70th Week are/were demon and idol worshipers, which did not have the MOTB or/and did not worship the Beast.  These are those who Christ must rule over with a rod of iron.  And yet many of these and their offspring will follow Satan at the end of the Mill and will be destroyed.  Not His obedient ones.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Revelation Man]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, DeighAnn said:

Seriously, are you trying to tell me the SCATTERED SHEEP of the House of Israel ALSO returned to  JERUSALEM when the House of Judah were sent from Babylon even though they had been released from  THEIR captivity to the Assyrians some 400? years before and even WHEN in all that time

THEY had never gone back to inhabit their own lands?   

We are not even in the same plane on this tbh. I do not even understand your point, all of this is END TIMES, I am not speaking about Babylon/Assyria in B.C. The point was Jesus only came unto Israel, thus his Wheat parable is ONLY about the Jews, not the Church, you guys indeed conflate EVERYTHING because you do not grasp this fact sister. You even conflated my point and did not understand I was trying to show why the Wheat is ONLY Israel in the parable.

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, DeighAnn said:

I know in your STUDY the Old Testament you found it easy to PROVE where those who went back to build the temple (THE SOUTHERN TRIBES that went into the Babylonia captivity)  and when and why, but as for Ephriam,  you must know that is a completely different story and they were the ones who were scattered ESPECIALLY SINCE THE JEWS HAVE NEVER HEARD HIS VOICE.  How do you explain that?  

Again, now I see why your question came, but it just shows you are confused as per God's Word on this issue, God CAN NOT LIE. The reason you will not accept Ezekiel 37:11-14 is it shows that God indeed brought ALL Israel back into the land in 1948. It is not my studies per se, I just understand how to interpret prophecy sister, it is my calling of nigh 40 years now.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live(this happens during the 70th week, Israel repents), and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

Now, Dee you may not accept this, but God's word is God's word, we can't make God's word untrue in order to have our ideas fit. God stated very clearly that He brought the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back into the land, not half, not 1/3 not 2 tribes, not one tribe but the WHOLE HOUSE !! So, that finishes it off, nothing anyone says different is going to change anything because God can not lie.

Anyone using common sense knows that each tribe had men living in Jerusalem, thus when the 10 tribes were toted off each tribe had men living in Jerusalem and MEN = SEED living in Judea. In the Two Sticks Prophecy in Ez. 37 God states he will make two nations one nation as He originally intended. 

So, when Babylon took Israel captive there was Seed from all 12 Tribes taken, when Israel came back seed from all 12 tribes came back. I really can't believe I have to waste time arguing a FOREGONE CONCLUSION, all one has to do is believe God over other men in Ez. 37:11-14. God states the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel was brought back (in 1948).

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, DeighAnn said:

So, if you tell me what happened to the NORTHERN Tribes, what prophecies were given them and how they were fulfilled (and if you would like what countries they 'became' when their punishment ended so I will know we are on the same page, and then we will talk.  Short of that, we will never agree because you don't seem to know who the scattered sheep were as you seem to think they were Judah and Benjamin, who weren't scattered at all as we know exactly what they did and when.  

Again, IF you don't give me Scripture to the points you try to make, I can't  follow your line of thinking as your beliefs are very foreign to me. 

I have given them to you before, you refuse to heed them sister. God brought the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back in to the land in 1948. Meaning EVERY TRIBE, God does not have to give us an itemized account of every seed, He just needs to tell us He brought back the WHOLE HOUSE which means every tribe. He is the boss, not us. You see what I do is I take God's word at face value, the I try to figure out why this IS TRUE !! And how it came to pass in such a manner.

I did not just assume that the Northern Tribes had men living in Jerusalem, Judea, even though back in any country in those days men throughout the nation lived in the bigger cities in order to work or worship. But I read the holy word and understood God had saved himself 7000 men (which means 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 or Divine Completion x Completion) and understood God had saved Himself the Completeness of Israel by His Divine nature. The 144,000 is also a code, anytime you see perfect numbers its an encoded message. But in this case its not even that hard tbh, just listen to God's prophecy, I will bring the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back into the land. There is no wiggle room there !!

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, DeighAnn said:

Yes, because THEY HEARD HIS VOICE...did you catch that clue?   All those who hear His voice...from the SCATTERED SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.  Not the WHOLE house, not JACOB, not ALL of Israel...but the scattered sheep of the HOUSE of Israel...

The WHOLE HOUSE is not every Jew, only 1/3 repent, 2/3 will perish, many Jews will be in hell just like most Gentiles will be in hell, you do not get concepts sister, the WHOLE HOUSE to God means every tribe is represented. But what it does not mean is that the Church is of the WHOLE HOUSE God was speaking about, because He called those bones Israel. 

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, DeighAnn said:

And ISRAEL is IN PART (the southern part) blinded UNTIL the time of the gentiles...they are BLINDED BY GOD for the scattered sheep...so don't boast...

No, no no no no.........Gosh, this is so frustrating when a person can't grasp these simple concepts of God. You know this is why people are led by "Elders in the Church" so they can learn the truths of God right? Israel IN PART is a very, very simple concept sister, but only if people will listen unto truths.

God can never, ever take away an individual's right to repent, but He can take away a Nations right to repent as a nation is this a true concept? Yes, how so ? Because all men have to have the God given ability to repent and turn unto God or else God is a liar when He says He desires that all men come unto him, and that all men must die and be judged righteously, if a man is BLINDED and can not repent God is thus not a holy and just God. But God can indeed take away a Nations right to repent by.........DRUMROLL.........Making then to become NOT A NATION !!! Boom, God did just that, He allowed Israel to be dispersed around the whole world, God says Israel became as "Dead Men's Bones" meaning to Him they were now dead and not a nation in His eyes. So, the Jews were in Poland, Russia, America etc. etc. etc. for nigh 2000 years, so how could they repent as ONE NATION? Answer: They couldn't, they could only repent IN PART as individuals, hence they were only blinded IN PART as a Nation. 

You took that whole concept and made it fit your narrative that the 10 Tribes are now the Church. That stuff came from the Cultist Herbert W. Armstrong. God stated the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel was brough back to the land (1948) by believing God's word we do not go down these cul-de-sacs sister. 

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, DeighAnn said:

YOU seem to think they are blinded for OUR BENEFIT and GOD FOLLOWS THAT with a good old punishment.. for being blinded...You don't see the problem there, do you?  

SMILE..........NO...........I show that above, they are blinded as a Nation until the Churches time has come full (Gentiles calling) which means at the rapture the TIMES CROSS OVER AGAIN. Israel then has their calling (which Paul tells us is without repentance) by God become front and center again. With the Church gone, Israel must now rule with Jesus for 1000 years during the Kingdom Age but first they must repent and do so as seen in Zech. 13:8-9 just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. That is when they flee to the Petra/Bozrah area (at the 1290). The 1335 is the Two-witnesses blessing. 

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, DeighAnn said:

It's so funny how all the PRE TRIBS say the CHURCH has nothing to do with ISRAEL BUT
call upon EVERYTHING written to them and by them to PROVE how much a part of them the church is not.  Isn't there a word for that?  

Until you understand the DIFFERENT CALLINGS you will never get it in full. Romans 9-11 is about SERVTITUDE, that is why Jacob and Esau is brought into the picture, and the Pharaoh, why the Potter is spoken about as choosing the vessel He so chooses. Thus the TIME of the Gentiles coming full is about the Churches calling coming to a end and Israel's calling (Kingdom Age) coming back into the picture again. 

Being able to copy and paste scriptures sister does not mean we understand how to interpret them. Remember that, and it will help you out in the long run. 

God Bless

Edited August 29, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

It is all one verse. You missed that second AND, which ties the two together at the midpoint of the Week.

In Christ

Montana Marv

No ,it doesn't tie it to the same day.

You don't comprehend the time of great tribulation or the amount of time between the daly sacrifice and the AoD.

You believe great tribulation is 3 1/2 years before the end.The great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation takes place at the end.

You are 1290 days off.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, let's not get into the insult mode.  If you really do have unambiguous evidence from the Bible, just share it.  It's up to each person to grasp what is shared.  Don't demean YOURSELF by insinuating that I have blinders on or just can't comprehend, or whatever else is typically thrown out. If you have actual evidence, just share.  Let me look at it, if you aren't afraid of having to defend it.

Sorry. I've just seen the past results.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What does the beginning of v.24 say?  'AFTER the tribulation'  So this passage is all about the Second Advent.  My point as well.

No sir. I just showed you the signs of the sun, moon and stars MARK the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 to the 6th seal. Undeniable evidence.

Then you say that it is after the tribulation so it is talking about the second advent. You are not understanding the verse proves that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. The second advert occurs at the end of wrath which is at the end of the 7th trumpet.

So Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins when the 1st trumpet is blown. Wrath is over at the 7th as Jesus returns to the earth and sets up His kingdom.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

One tiny problem.  The 5th seal is at the beginning of the Tribulation, and 5 have already been opened.  So you think Jesus comes after the tribulation begins??  Then when He comes back AFTER the tribulation, that would have to be the THIRD Advent, but there aren't 3 advents.

The final week begins when the 7 year covenant is confirmed. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, pretrib, then the seals can be opened. The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation. At the end of the great tribulation, the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is the second coming of Jesus. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect. They return to heaven.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper while Gods wrath is on the earth. Then Armageddon happens as the armies of Heaven return to the earth. Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and sets up His kingdom.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You haven't shown Jesus coming during the Tribulation, even though you think He will.  You've only shown signs in the heavens, which can and will occur during the tribulation AND when He comes back.

I have shown you that Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation. We can see that this happens at the 6th seal as it is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Tribulation is over. There is a harvest and then wrath begins.