Offense

[jesusandliberty]

On 8/22/2023 at 6:26 AM, SpiritSong said:

Why do you think Christ even mentions offense?

Jesus predicted "political correctness" and "wokeness." It won't be long before pastors across the globe will have to edit their sermons like they did in 1930's Germany or be thrown in prison. Christians in America and the UK are not ready for the real persecution coming. 

[SpiritSong]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Our Lord Jesus was asked three questions in 24:3. In Matthew He answers the questions how they apply to the three peoples on earth. Let's define that. From Adam to Abraham we have the Nations. Then, from Jacob God chose out one Nation to be special to Him and from which He would launch the recovery of man and the earth. This was the Nation of Israel. Then, from the moment He died on the cross, Jesus became the seed with which God raised a new Nation that had its origin in Christ (Jn.12:24). Ephesians 2:15 tells us that this is a New Creation and that it is made of persons from OUT OF BOTH the Nations and the Nation of Israel. Theses three Peoples, the Nations, the Nation of Israel and the New Man.

In Matthew 24 and 25 our Lord answers the three questions to each of the three peoples. First He answers the Jews. You will notice that every thing from Mathew 24:1 to 31 is Jewish. The Temple, The disciples, Judea, Jerusalem, Daniel - a prophet to Judah and Israel, the Abomination of Desolation, the Sabbath, our Lord Jesus breaking the clouds over the mount of Olives and Christ sending His angels to collect those scattered to the "four winds" - are all Jewish.

In verse 9 our Lord outlines the troubles that the disciples will face when preaching Jesus. The term "all nations" is there, not to designate every Nation. It means that because Jews are dispersed throughout all the nations, the disciples will encounter persecution there FROM THE JEWS there. See Galatians 2:6-9.

In verse 10 the gospel has taken effect. SOME Jews are converted and SOME refuse the gospel. The hate for Jesus name will now cause persecution WITHIN THE JEWISH FAMILIES. The Greek language specialists tell us that the meaning of the word we render "offended" (Skandalizo) means "causing or putting a stumbling block" in front of people. Now notice the grammar. It is the "scandalized" or, "the offended" who will betray and who will hate. And Acts of the Apostles records the hate leveled by the Jews towards the Apostles. In this case, the "offended" are non-believing Jews who thoroughly reject Jesus, and any family member who embraces Jesus can expect a tirade of hate, ejection from the family and ejection from the synagogues.

There is a very practical aspect to this as well. The Roman Church, which started with Constantine in about 313 AD, emphasized that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus, and mounted unabated hate towards the Jews. The Jews now hate the Christian more, blaming then for the terrible things that have been done to the Jews. The words of this part of our Lord's prophecy were fulfilled very accurately.

Why do you think these scriptures pertain to Israel alone and not to the body of Christ?

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, SpiritSong said:

Why do you think these scriptures pertain to Israel alone and not to the body of Christ?

Good question. We read in 1st Corinthians 1:21-24 ...

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The word "stumblingblock" in verse 23 is the same root word as "Offense" (Gk.- "Skandalon"). The Jews are Offended by the crucifixion of Jesus. the Gentiles just think it is foolishness.

[SpiritSong]

22 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Many will be offended of the Gospel. A great falling away.

Only a couple of translations use the word offended.

What other word is used in other translations? I am reading from nkjv, I'm not sure that the meaning could change that drastically with other translations (we might have to explore that I a separate thread, if so!)

What other conclusion could we come to? I too surmised that Jesus was speaking of the great apostasy.

[SpiritSong]

22 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Some thoughts these questions provoke:

The catch-cry is "diversity". 

Diversity is idolised as the modern panacea.

Panacea is a word that means “a remedy for all ills or difficulties” or “cure-all” ¹. The term is often used to describe a solution that can solve all problems related to a particular issue ². However, it is most often used to decry a remedy that falls far short of what some claim it can do ¹. [BingChat]

Inclusivity is another power-word in play.

 

Many movies and TV series have plots that include religious content in some form, though not always in a favourable light. 

 

Media supremacy is indicated as a feature of the beast from the sea.

 

(Rev 13:2)  Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

(Rev 13:5)  And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

 

Technology + Ideology = Mediology

 

As always, the conflict is between good and evil.

I can understand how these things can provoke offense, my question really wants to deal with how to avoid offense so great it causes many in the church to betray one another, and ultimately fall away and fail to endure.

[SpiritSong]

18 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The offense is with them that place stumbling blocks in the path to Christ. 

How often has something been important enough to be stated twice in the same Gospel?

Matthew 

5:29  And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee:

for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,

and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee:

for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,

and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come,

but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you.

It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than

having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 

9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you.

It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than

having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

So, what is the significance of "cutting off a right hand,

or plucking out a right eye" regarding this topic of offense.

skandalon [G4625] ; skandalizo [G4624]

Yes these certainly do cause offense, and as stumbling blocks, I can see how they lead to betrayal also. Which is why it must be so important as it be referred to more than once, I agree. How then are we to avoid or endure such offense?

[SpiritSong]

14 hours ago, Who me said:

No it is the otherwise around, nonchristiaans will be, are offended by the preaching of the gospel, by the qua.ity of Christians lives is offensive as it shows up the immorality of their lives and they are offended.

In the UK laws are being formed that make it a criminal offence to offend someone.

This is aimed  at protecting gays and against Christians.American hate laws will be twisted to do the same.

I do agree that the gospel does offend non-believers, but in the passage of scripture presented, Jesus is speaking to his disciples who give testimony of Him, and must also be addressing future believers as well, as the apostles died long before the last days He was describing/explaining.

[Michael37]

11 minutes ago, SpiritSong said:

I can understand how these things can provoke offense, my question really wants to deal with how to avoid offense so great it causes many in the church to betray one another, and ultimately fall away and fail to endure.

 

Hi @SpiritSong The above thread attracted some interesting posts back in 2020. In search there are actually a good number of threads on Worthy that have content relating to offending and being offended.

Growing up I only had to admit to being the son of a preacher to offend some people.

As for members of the body of Christ offending one another, that's when forgiveness should be exercised.

Our Lord wasn't too bothered about His ministry and message causing offense. It is to be expected from those in the world, and in the flesh.

Mat_11:6  And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."
Mat_13:57  So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."
Mat_15:12  Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"
Mar_6:3  Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?" So they were offended at Him.

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, SpiritSong said:

What other word is used in other translations? I am reading from nkjv, I'm not sure that the meaning could change that drastically with other translations (we might have to explore that I a separate thread, if so!)

What other conclusion could we come to? I too surmised that Jesus was speaking of the great apostasy.

Of the top ten or so translations on biblehub.

The main words used is to fall away, to stumble etc.

Not saying offend is a wrong translation but it does require a broader understanding of the word offend to fully grasp how its used in the verse. In that particular verse in the OP, offend would mean to disagree, other verses it can be to the point of insulted, feelings hurt, anger etc.

Edited August 23, 2023 by BeyondET

[garee]

 

The gospel offends 

Offence comes as a hard saying like one stopping up one ears in anger.Not hard to understand but hard to believe.The Jew thought  his Jewish flesh could profit for something it did not because flesh cannot .  

Proverbs 21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?