Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[Your closest friendnt]

@Vine Abider

If you do not get something perhaps it's time to ask for questions for clarification that may help you understand what we learn from the scriptures specifically from the Revelations of Jesus Christ chapter two and three. 

[Vine Abider]

33 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Vine Abider

If you do not get something perhaps it's time to ask for questions for clarification that may help you understand what we learn from the scriptures specifically from the Revelations of Jesus Christ chapter two and three. 

Sorry bro - I'm having trouble seeing where your posts address the topic of this thread . . . therefore I'm not even sure what questions to ask you.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Okay. I've read your comprehensive answer and thank you for your effort.

Always happy to explain.   

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think that the easiest way to disprove me would have been plain scripture. Your understanding of 2nd Corinthians 5:6-8 is fraught with difficulties.

There are no difficulties with what I shared.  I would need an explanation of what would be considered a difficulty.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have a live Christian absent from the Lord. But then in death, when the "tabernacle" is dissolved and buried in the sand, you have him present with the Lord Who has a body. How can a nothing be present with substance?

Do you think Paul was confused about the matter?  THE most accomplished evangelist and Bible teacher, since he was taught directly from the Lord Himself?  I shared what he wrote.  I can do nothing more.  It is very clear to me.

I even extended myself beyond my usual "rules" and gave an explanation for all the references in Scripture regarding the dead being seen, etc.  Obviously it is all speculation on some level, or theory.  But since God didn't give any details, how do you treat the examples in the Bible of dead people being seen in heaven (Rev 6) and what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 5?

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then you have the disembodied believer in heaven (but without a single scripture)

Well, I do have Scripture.  What John SAW in heaven.  John 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 

10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,were killed just as they had been.

They are talking with (questioning) the Lord.  Obviously they are in heaven.  

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

when Psalm 139:8 says that if a man makes his bed in Hades, he will be with the Lord's Spirit.

That is OT.  Every soul went to Hades.  Jesus account of Lazarus the poor man and a rich man both went to Hades, one to Paradise with Abraham, and the other to torments.  But after the resurrection, Jesus went to Hades and 'preached to the spirits in prison' and took all the inhabitants of Paradise with Him to heaven.

1 Pet 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

Eph 4:8 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”  9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions)?

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

According to John 4:24 this is the the correct way - "worship" (a function of the soul) in the Spirit - (the PLACE of worship).

Jesus didn't say "soul".  He said "spirit".  He was referring to the fact that only born again people have a living human spirit in them.  What actually died "on THAT day" back in Gen 3 was the human spirit.  1 Thess 5:23 identifies body, soul AND spirit.  When the Godhead said "let's make man in OUR image" meant just as the Godhead is Triune, Tripartate, Trichonomous, man was made in THAT image: body, soul, and human spirit.  So when Adam rebelled, his human spirit died "on that day", but not his soul or body.

So Jesus was telling the woman in Jn 4:24 that in order to worship God, one must have a human spirit (alive) with which to worship.  Unbelievers are said to be spiritually dead, therefore are unable to worship God properly.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

As to 1st Corinthians 15:23, you have a problem because the resurrection is "those who are His".

Oh, no.  That is no problem at all.  It should be obvious that every saved person from Adam forward belongs to Him.  What else can that refer to?

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Besides being Head of the Church, He is King and owner of Israel. They are BOTH His, but they are resurrected at different times and with different glories.

But that's not what 1 Cor 15:23 says.  It says "when He comes" and we KNOW that He only comes back to earth ONE MORE TIME.  Heb 9:28 says so.

So 1 Cor 15:23 includes every believer from all time.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But even more have you a problem with the Beast and the False prophet.

No, I don't.  They don't even factor into this discussion.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

They both come out of the Abyss. The Beast "was" and "shall be". He was one of seven kings, but has died, but will be the eighth. 2nd Thessalonians 2 says that we will see the "revealing" of the Beast. That means the Beast will be resurrected BEFORE the Christians. The best remains true to Hebrews 9:27. He does not die again. He goes alive to the Lake of Fire.

None of this has any effect on the singular resurrection of all believers.  And your use of the word "resurrected" in regard to the beast is in error.  There is no resurrection of the beast.  Read Rev 13.  He comes "out of the sea".  He is part of humanity.  There is no resurrection.  No verse supports that idea.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Finally, if we are to believe that God is God - the greatest mind ever, the absence of one exception is noteworthy. The grammar of 1st Corinthians 15:23 is to be respected - as you have. But how then do you reconcile the fact that our Lord Jesus was born of a virgin some 2,000 years ago, but is, at the same time, "firstborn of all creation".

As the Second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, He IS the first human ever.  He preceded Adam, of course.

Heb 1:5,6  For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?  Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?  And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Similarly, how is One born 2,000 years after Abraham BEFORE Abraham.

Given Heb 1:5, it is clear that Jesus existed as God's Son from eternity past.

And there are many examples of Jesus communicating with humans in the OT.  They are called theophanies.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And how is one crucified under the fixed rule of Pilate - a genuine historical person, and at the same time "slain from the foundation of the world".

To be "slain from the foundation of the world" simply refers to the FACT that God's will for His Son from eternity past was 'set in stone'.  iow, a FACT.  The plan was in effect "from the foundation of the world".

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But even more than this, what if I were to point out that we were "raised with Christ" - yet we both have not died yet?

Eph 1:13 teaches that the Holy Spirit places the believer IN Christ as part of his/her salvation.  Being IN Christ means we SHARE in all that Christ is and has.  Water baptism identifies us with His death, burial and resurrection.  It occurred to Him, and we share in that.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think the answer to multiple resurrections is easily fulfilled in the realm that we strain to understand.

Except that every mention of resurrection in the Bible is in the singular.  Second, there are NO verses that unambiguosly show multiple resurrections.

Obviously, those who believe in a pre-trib resurrection and rapture to heaven must admit that there will be a resurrection at the Second Advent, as Rev 20:4-6 very clearly shows.  What they can't prove is resurrected believers being taken to heaven.  In any verse.

[Your closest friendnt]

42 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Sorry bro - I'm having trouble seeing where your posts address the topic of this thread . . . therefore I'm not even sure what questions to ask you.

Thank you for your response. 

There is a lot said in this thread about the Judgement of Jesus beginning with his own people to give everyone rewards for what they have done and that is some unknown time in the future if correctly have I related to that.

First I referred to the parable of the talents and the good stewards receiving their rewards on the positive side and that happens in the same place where they were before the Lord cane back as they were going on doing their business and the Lord gave them their rewards while they were still alive...and that make sense as he gave them something that it can be used while they were still living. 

And in the book of Revelation in chapters two and three we have Jesus telling John to warn his people in some of his favorite churches...the churches whose golden lambstands were in his presence and he through John he is warning them of the things he is soon going to come to them and see how they follow up with his warnings and accordingly will reward each one of them. 

And he goes on to let them know about what it would happen on the day when he would suddenly come to them to pass judgment on them. He mentions the rewards he has for those who pay heed to what he asked them and what he will do to those who continue in their ways contrary to his warning to repent and begin to do what he asked them. 

Surely those things took place while they were alive and their rewards were useful to them in the course of their lives.  

They had to know at some time from Jesus himself how they were doing and receive the correction and their rewards in this life. 

That must be within the subject matter of this thread as we seek to understand about the judgment of Jesus on his own children and the time that he rewards them and what were the rewards that he gave them...

Did Jesus say that is the only time ge is going to do that? Definitely not, this must be an ongoing thing thereafter from generation to generation if not what is the saying "make your selfs ready for the visitation of the Lord, be ready because no one knows the time and the day as it happened with the ten virgins and the stewards with the talents because in this life we want to hear what we need to correct our selves from and or to hear the words of thank you good and faithful servant...and we have to expect to hear both in this life some time the word of correction and some time the words of Jesus rewarding us for something we have done that is pleasing him.

[Vine Abider]

57 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for your response. 

There is a lot said in this thread about the Judgement of Jesus beginning with his own people to give everyone rewards for what they have done and that is some unknown time in the future if correctly have I related to that.

First I referred to the parable of the talents and the good stewards receiving their rewards on the positive side and that happens in the same place where they were before the Lord cane back as they were going on doing their business and the Lord gave them their rewards while they were still alive...and that make sense as he gave them something that it can be used while they were still living. 

And in the book of Revelation in chapters two and three we have Jesus telling John to warn his people in some of his favorite churches...the churches whose golden lambstands were in his presence and he through John he is warning them of the things he is soon going to come to them and see how they follow up with his warnings and accordingly will reward each one of them. 

And he goes on to let them know about what it would happen on the day when he would suddenly come to them to pass judgment on them. He mentions the rewards he has for those who pay heed to what he asked them and what he will do to those who continue in their ways contrary to his warning to repent and begin to do what he asked them. 

Surely those things took place while they were alive and their rewards were useful to them in the course of their lives.  

They had to know at some time from Jesus himself how they were doing and receive the correction and their rewards in this life. 

That must be within the subject matter of this thread as we seek to understand about the judgment of Jesus on his own children and the time that he rewards them and what were the rewards that he gave them...

Did Jesus say that is the only time ge is going to do that? Definitely not, this must be an ongoing thing thereafter from generation to generation if not what is the saying "make your selfs ready for the visitation of the Lord, be ready because no one knows the time and the day as it happened with the ten virgins and the stewards with the talents because in this life we want to hear what we need to correct our selves from and or to hear the words of thank you good and faithful servant...and we have to expect to hear both in this life some time the word of correction and some time the words of Jesus rewarding us for something we have done that is pleasing him.

Thanks for the clarification!  Yes, as we (sheep) hear His voice, He will tell us things - approving or disproving of our actions.  Therefore, in that respect it is a matter of taking His gentle discipline now, in this life.

However, the way I read 2 Corinthians 5:10 is that it (judgement seat of Christ) pertains more to something future.  That is, looking at the verses preceding, Paul is talking about being with the Lord (i.e., "absent from the body").  And it Romans 14:10, which is the other mention of the "Judgement seat of Christ" it says "we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ."  Therefore it must be a future thing.

[Vine Abider]

FYI everyone - I found a simple & straightforward piece on the Judgment Seat of Christ over on Blue Letter Bible. Worth the read:

 https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_144.cfm

(also added this to one of my opening posts)

CC: @FreeGrace @AdHoc @Dennis1209 @farouk @luigi@DeighAnn@Marathoner@Mr. M@Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

20 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for the clarification!  Yes, as we (sheep) hear His voice, He will tell us things - approving or disproving of our actions.  Therefore, in that respect it is a matter of taking His gentle discipline now, in this life.

However, the way I read 2 Corinthians 5:10 is that it (judgement seat of Christ) pertains more to something future.  That is, looking at the verses preceding, Paul is talking about being with the Lord (i.e., "absent from the body").  And it Romans 14:10, which is the other mention of the "Judgement seat of Christ" it says "we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ."  Therefore it must be a future thing.

Every knee shall bow down before the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. Each and everyone at his appointed time the time after they have taken their last breath and while their relatives here on earth are preparing their body for their burial according to their customs and saying their prayers to their Lord and their God in ignorance that the deceased is not appearing before their Lord and their God but before the Judge of all people not just his own people but the judge of all the people in the world,

Which it is the time for the judgment of Jesus to  let everyone know where they will spend their eternity. 

And they can see that their Lords and their Gods and their Kings they all bow down before Jesus Christ, this is it they accept his judgment and no one dares to make war against him and fight for their people and oppose the authority of the Christ of God. 

It does not mean that everyone knows that, not everyone believes and have this knowledge. The People of different persuasions are taught something else that they will be judged by their God. And they must believe so..they have to because he was their Lord and their Judge while they lived and followed what their God or his representatives had put before them.

But according to our knowledge they will be surprised that for sure to find them selves bowing down before the one who had rejected and had refused to believe...this is Jesus Christ.  

Jesus knowing that he told the people around him, he let them know that the Heavenly Father has appointed him to be the Judge of all people.  

He was telling the people who were expecting to be Judge by the Lord of their Covenant that won't happen and that they will appear before him for their judgment on that day when they died...he told them that the scriptures that say every knee will bow down before the Judge of all it was about him...Jesus said this scripture is fulfilled in Him.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

20 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

FYI everyone - I found a simple & straightforward piece on the Judgment Seat of Christ over on Blue Letter Bible. Worth the read:

 https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_144.cfm

(also added this to one of my opening posts)

CC: @FreeGrace @AdHoc @Dennis1209 @farouk @luigi@DeighAnn@Marathoner@Mr. M@Your closest friendnt

I read his epistle and he said what he had to say at this specific time and at his specific age....that we accept as a fact.

But we are not told a number of things and one of them is what was the result of the debate the testing of him intrepiding Paul or the Psalms or other references to Scriptures. 

So this is my take because we do not know if at some given time he began to examine what he had wrote about ten years ago and now with him being a deferent individual after (let's say ten years) and reading his letter which he wrote ten years ago he found himself disagreeing with a lot of its context. 

It seems that you put the onus on the redership to do the testing of his interpretation of scripture he used to support his arguments. 

I do not know if you want to be part of it, but I suggest that you should to prove that we should not follow a man and his brand in everything he had to say but like the Berrians put everything to test...(and we do not know if he latter on he had renew his mind and he not longer supports many of the things he had said in his earlier years just like anyone of us. 

[Your closest friendnt]

20 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

FYI everyone - I found a simple & straightforward piece on the Judgment Seat of Christ over on Blue Letter Bible. Worth the read:

 https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_144.cfm

(also added this to one of my opening posts)

CC: @FreeGrace @AdHoc @Dennis1209 @farouk @luigi@DeighAnn@Marathoner@Mr. M@Your closest friendnt

Many of the things he said at that time

(to be fair to the man, because we are not informed that later on him revisiting his post that he no longer supports some of them)

are not supported by scripture and not only he has infused his own beliefs of that time in a way that he had to misinterpret scripture, stray away for the reasons why the scriptures were given. 

And we do not know or not given if the elders in his church endorse his letter or how many they did not endorse or the parts of the letter they did not endorse and the reasons why. 

To be better understood I am not going to debate him because he is not the one who put this letter forwards in an open forum, but as it is you who posted the letter I would like to know if you have put your self in the position to represent him in what he posted, or just if you want to be part of a simple discussion to establish what it's from scripture and what it is from the man...(which we do not know if at a later time and before his death he had come to see his departure from a lot of scripture which he choose not to consider or remember it at the time he wrote this letter. 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Vine Abider]

@Your closest friendnt if there is something specifically you object to in the article that was linked, may I suggest you take one point you disagree with and present that for discussion?