Perfection Theology

[Mr. M]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

James is quite clear that we should display works fitting the faith we have received from God's Word. But perfection shall not be found in any other than Jesus..

A testimony for which Paul also fully attests.

Acts 26:19 Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, jesusandliberty said:

I see a lot of steam picking up from Christians spouting perfection doctrine. They back it up with scripture by saying all the verses pertaining to us as sinners refer to us before becoming disciples of Jesus. Can Christians attain 100% righteous perfection? Is this theology sound? Why or why not?

Matt. 5:48 “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

The problem with this translation and similar ones is that modern English has changed the meaning of the word "perfect" into something different from what it's primary definition used to be. 

Perfect did not originally mean "flawless," it meant (and still does, if you look it up in a dictionary) "complete." (That was it's meaning in KJV times.) This is the meaning of the underlying Greek term used above and in many other such verses: teleios --

τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

We still use the same sense of the word in English grammar: the perfect tense of verbs denotes completed action; imperfect verbs denote incompleted action.

For us to be perfect/complete in God's sight is to do the work which God calls us to do, even though we may commit sins along the way. To bear fruits of the Spirit is to be completed in Christ.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

we are in dispute about a works-based salvation

I'm not... I never said good works "earn" your salvation.

But God's Word most definitely teaches that if one does not do good works (lives in sin, after the flesh), they shall not enter in to God's Kingdom.

This is because those that are led by the flesh (sinning) are disobedient to the Lord's calling to come out from the Lord and be set apart unto Him.

Big difference between try to earn your salvation thru good works verses being obedient to the calling of the Lord to abide In Christ, being led by the Spirit, walking with Him... which is the entire reason WHY the Lord created us in His Image in the first place... He wants a family that choose to turn from darkness and live for Him.

Many today are advocating for the right to live after the flesh (sin) and claim to still be in right standing with the Lord and that is false doctrine that causes people to not inherit God's Kingdom in the end.
 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Stan Murff

[enoob57]

38 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

I'm not... I never said good works "earn" your salvation.

If maintaining works to keep one saved, which you are claiming ... then yes you are teaching a works based salvation!

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

 

I believe the doctrine of perfection comes through the scriptures

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

We are to come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, 
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

The perfect man is said to be able to offend not in word (rehardless of offending in many things) having the ability to bridle the whole body

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, 
and able also to bridle the whole body.

In us also the love of God is to be perfected

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Same here, His love perfected in us

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

And the apostles wished for their perfection

2 Cr 13:9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Even as they were to go onto perfection

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And here shows that which is choked bringing no fruit to perfection

Luke 8:4 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Theres others but theres a few 

[Mozart's Starling]

Immediately strikes me as blasphemous and conceited to think one can be completely devoid of ALL sin until they hit Heaven. You're judged just for your thoughts and the kind of people who believe they never even commit a single errant thought are the people that drive others away from the church. My view is if you actively avoid sin as much as you can that's all that is expected of you. The idea you'll be as sinless as Jesus is plain evil to even consider. If you're too prideful once, if you lose your temper once at any point in your journey then you've sinned. It actually irritates me to think some people believe this. And anyone who thinks they are infallibly pure are of a haughty spirit and sin by default.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Mozart's Starling

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

 

In this situation (if you go back and read)  it says,

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. (thats their own righteousness)

And yet in respects to Daniel it does show Daniel confessing his sin

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God

And God referred to Job as perfect 

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright  man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Mozart's Starling]

13 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

 

In this situation (if you go back and read)  it says,

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. (thats their own righteousness)

And yet in respects to Daniel it does show Daniel confessing his sin

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God

And God referred to Job as perfect 

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright  man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

 

 

So you seriously believe that not once in your journey, you will falter? If you are literally completely perfect you are basically a less powerful God. A human Jesus. Why would you entertain this nonsense? I would imagine He meant as perfect as a human can be. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Mozart's Starling

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

7 minutes ago, Mozart's Starling said:

So you seriously believe that not once in your journey, you will falter? If you are literally completely perfect you are basically a less powerful God. A human Jesus. Why would you entertain this nonsense? I would imagine He meant as perfect as a human can be. 

What verses are you referring to?

[Mozart's Starling]

6 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

What verses are you referring to?

I am using the obvious implications such a thing would have. What follows is a sinless being would logically put you on the level of a non divine Jesus. Only Jesus was without fault, was completely perfect. You'd dare entertain the idea that you'd ever achieve that on Earth? The fact Job lamented what he was going through and not just accepting it for what it seems like a less than perfect reaction.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Mozart's Starling