Horns On Heads Of Beasts

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So how does he conquer the nearly 2 BILLION people of Islam?

 

Again Marylin, you are looking at 2 billion people (Muslims) who live in the WHOLE WORLD, I take only the designated area into consideration, the E.U. (of course) then the only nations he is shown  to conquer in any scriptures passages anywhere. In Dan. 8:9 we know he conquers East (Turkey/Seleucus). Israel or the Pleasant land and South (Egypt/Ptolemy)......and in Dan. 11:40-43 we get a play by play that shows us this man (E.U. President) conquers  Israel and "MANY Countries" then we are shown who they are and who they are not, he conquers COUNTRIES to get at Israel, so Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan fit this description, then he conquers Israel and Egypt/Libya, which back in that time was basically all of North Africa on a any map. 

It also says he can not conquer Edom, Ammon and Moab or the Jordanian Mountainous areas in Central and Southern Jordan where it has been prophesied in many verses that Israel will flee unto in the end times. We know via the European Neighborhood Policy, (it can be read on Wikipedia and at many other places) that the E.U. has current 7 year Agreements with Israel and every nation on the Mediterranean Sea Coastline from Lebanon, to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and finally Libya. These are THE MANY mentioned in Daniel 9:27, in Dan. 8:25 and in Daniel 11:40-43. 

So, there are not two billion Muslims living in the E.U. and those nation mentioned Marylin, and that area is the ONLY AREA the Anti-Christ/Beast rules over, he will not rule over the whole earth. The whole earth being spoken about is DESIGNATED unto us via the Great Sea these Beasts all arise from, and via the 7 Heads (From Egypt, to Rome to the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast Man) and 10 horns (E.U.s complete reunification). So, not only will he wipe out Islam or FORBID it in the E.U. and in all those nations above (THE MANY) which he conquers, but he will also forbid ALL RELIGIONS n those areas, and the E.U., save Beast worship. In other words you will not be able to worship Zeus or Jupiter, nor worship Allah or the God of the bible, NOR ANY God !! Including Hindus etc. etc. etc.

That also includes Jesus Christ, so that is what Dan. 9:27 means, when the 1/3 of Israel repents (Zech. 13:8-9) they will naturally go to their temple t worship Jesus right? BOOM, now this makes sense when read in context with Israel repenting in Zech. 13:8-9 JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord arrives in the very next verse in Zech. 14:1, they Repent (1/3 OR  5 million Jews the code = 144,000) and then the Jewish High Priest in league with "his E.U. President, will FORBID Jesus worship, or TAKE AWAY...."THE SACRIFICE" which is Jesus Worship. 

Dan. 9:27 And he (A.C.) shall confirm the covenant(Agreement meaning Israel JOINS the E.U.) with many for one week(Lasts only 7 years): and in the midst of the week(3.5 years into this AGREEMENT) he shall cause the sacrifice(Jesus Worship is FORIDEN) and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

This 666 man/Beast/Little Horn/AC only rules over THIS AREA BELOW Marylin, that does not have 2 billion Muslims in that specific area. He will forbid the worshiping of ALL GODS in those areas, not just Muslins worshiping Allah.

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

And how more terrifying can he be than what we see Islam do?

Satan in any form = Murder and mayhem. 

[Triton57]

On 12/30/2024 at 4:06 PM, Michael37 said:

Daniel's Vision Of Four Beasts: (Seven Heads & Ten Horns Total + One Little Horn)

Dan 7:1-6  In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts.  (2)  Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.  (3)  And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other.  (4)  The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it.  (5)  "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: 'Arise, devour much flesh!'  (6)  "After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

This beast was like a leopard with four heads, and four wings of a fowl at the back of it ( Daniel 7:6). This beast represents the Grecian empire, the third superpower of the ancient world. Led by Alexander the Great, the Grecian army defeated Persia's Darius III at the battle of Arbela in 331 B. C. Just as the eagle's wings on the back of the lion denoted speed of conquest at war, the four wings of a fowl at the back of this leopard represent an unparalleled speed of conquest at war. If Babylon was swift in conquering nations, the Grecian empire was unsurpassed under the leadership of Alexander the great. By the time Alexander was 33 years, he had the world at his feet. Even though he conquered the world within a very short period, he could not conquer himself. He died of a fever which was brought on by excessive intake of alcohol. When he was about to die, he was asked the straightforward question: To whom will you leave the kingdom? And his reply was; "the strongest". Within a period of 20 years the Grecian empire was plunged into civil war as the generals of Alexander the great tested their strength against each other. It was not until the Battle of Ipsus in 301 B. C., that four of Alexander's generals divided the Grecian empire among themselves. These four generals were Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy and Seleucus. Cassander took Greece and Macedonia; Lysimachus took Thrace, Bithynia, Pergamum and much of Asia Minor; Ptolemy took Egypt, Lybia, and Palestine; while Seleucus took over Asia Minor, Syria, and Persia which included Babylon. Thus friends, the four heads of the leopard represent the four generals who took over the Grecian empire after the demise of Alexander the great. Greece ruled the ancient world from 331 B. C. to 168 B. C.
 

Dan 7:7-8  After this, in my vision of the night, I saw a fourth beast, a thing causing fear and very troubling, full of power and very strong; and it had great iron teeth: it took its food, crushing some of it to bits and stamping down the rest with its feet: it was different from all the beasts before it; and it had ten horns.  (8)  I was watching the horns with care, and I saw another coming up among them, a little one, before which three of the first horns were pulled up by the roots: and there were eyes like a man's eyes in this horn, and a mouth saying great things.

Ministering Angel's Interpretation:

Dan 7:23-25  This is what he said: The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom which will come on earth, different from all the kingdoms, and it will overcome all the earth, crushing it down and smashing it.  (24)  And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will come to power; and after them another will come up: he will be different from the first ones and will put down three kings.  (25)  And he will say words against the Most High, attempting to put an end to the saints of the Most High; and he will have the idea of changing times and law; and the saints will be given into his hands for a time and times and half a time.  

Divine Judgment:

Dan 7:9-12  CEV Thrones were set up while I was watching, and the Eternal God took his place. His clothing and his hair were white as snow. His throne was a blazing fire with fiery wheels,  (10)  and flames were dashing out from all around him. Countless thousands were standing there to serve him. The time of judgment began, and the books were opened.  (11)  I watched closely to see what would happen to this smaller horn because of the arrogant things it was saying. Then before my very eyes, the fourth beast was killed and its body destroyed by fire.  (12)  The other three beasts had their authority taken from them, but they were allowed to live a while longer.

Dan 7:26-28  But the judge will be seated, and they will put an end to his authority, to overcome it and send complete destruction on it.  (27)  And the kingdom and the authority and the power of the kingdoms under all the heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an eternal kingdom, and all powers will be his servants and do his pleasure.  (28)  Here is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, I was greatly troubled by my thoughts, and the colour went from my face: but I kept the thing in my heart.

John's Vision Of Two Beasts: (Seven Heads & Ten Horns + Two Lamb-like Horns )

Rev 13:1-2  And I stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. And on its horns were ten crowns, and on its heads was the name of blasphemy.  (2)  And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority.
 

I don't think we can connect Daniel 7 to historical kingdoms, they must be future kingdoms. I'm not going to try and guess at any except the 4th kingdom because that's the only one we really have much else described about in prophecy. This conclusion can be made through a logical examination of the text itself in Daniel 7 along with explicit connections of the animal kinds listed there.

The 4th king/kingdom has 10 horns, each themselves representing kings/kingdoms. We therefore know logically that the 4th beast is an alliance of kingdoms united in power.

We also know the 4th kingdom with 10 horns is explicitly tied to the end times, meaning that its depiction is something yet future.

However, we can deduce from the rest of Daniel 7 that these 10 kings/kingdoms of the 4th beast must exist in the Middle East because among them rises a little horn, which is associated with the false christ. The false christ makes his seat of power in the temple of God in Jerusalem. This fits with the idea of the little horn coming up among the 10 because while he is little and the 10 are not, he defeats 3 of them. This would point to "little" referring not to power, but to the size of his kingdom. In the Middle East, today at least, we can see many large kingdoms that both exist and are antagonistic to 1 smaller kingdom.

Diverse & Coexistent

Additionally, these 4 beasts are diverse from each other, and also coexist with each other. This eliminates the possibility that these are successive kingdoms that consume each other in the historical sense.

Daniel 7:3, 7
And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. ... After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it[H6925]; and it had ten horns.

"Before" can be both spacial and temporal, and I would encourage everyone to look at everywhere it is used in the Old Testament and decide for themselves. I will just pick a couple of them since it occurs 46 times in 38 verses. Either way actually doesn't change my view because this being spacial is not the only reason Daniel 7 is placed during the end times in its entirety, but I do believe it is spacial in usage. How does just Daniel use this word consistently?

 

Daniel 2:10-11, 24, 36
The Chaldeans answered before[H6925] the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore [there is] no king, lord, nor ruler, [that] asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean. And [it is] a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before[H6925] the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh. ... Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise [men] of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise [men] of Babylon: bring me in before[H6925] the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation. ... This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before[H6925] the king.

 

Daniel 3:13
Then Nebuchadnezzar in [his] rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before[H6925] the king.

 

Daniel 4:6-8
Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise [men] of Babylon before[H6925] me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream. Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before[H6925] them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof. But at the last Daniel came in before me,[H6925] whose name [was] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods: and before[H6925] him I told the dream, [saying],"

 

Daniel 5:13, 15, 17, 19
Then was Daniel brought in before[H6925] the king. [And] the king spake and said unto Daniel, [Art] thou that Daniel, which [art] of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry? ... And now the wise [men], the astrologers, have been brought in before[H6925] me, that they should read this writing, and make known unto me the interpretation thereof: but they could not shew the interpretation of the thing: ... Then Daniel answered and said before[H6925] the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation. ... And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him:[H6925] whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down."

 

Daniel 6:10-13, 18, 22
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before[H6925] his God, as he did aforetime. Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before[H6925] his God. Then they came near, and spake before[H6925] the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing [is] true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. Then answered they and said before[H6925] the king, That Daniel, which [is] of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day. ... Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before[H6925] him: and his sleep went from him. ... My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before[H6925] him innocency was found in me; and also before[H6925] thee, O king, have I done no hurt.

 

Daniel 7:8, 10, 13, 20
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before[H6925] whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ... A fiery stream issued and came forth from before[H6925] him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before[H6925] him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. ... I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before[H6925] him. ... And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before[H6925] whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.

 

Even the times in chapter 7 that are part of the same vision, every use is spacial, not temporal. Did a little horn came up before the 3 fell temporally, or before whom they fell spacially? Could ten thousand exist before God did? Honestly, in all cases I see it used they are spacial, did I miss something? Is this one use really different than all the rest in meaning and we're talking time and not space?

Coexistent in End Times

The 4th beast can be said to consume the other 3 in the sense that they give their power to the 4th beast however. We know this because the only other place where a lion, bear, leopard, and 10-horned beast are mentioned together is Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, which speaks of the false christ's kingdom. Since the world gives their power to the false chirst, who has power as the 4th beast, this makes sense that aspects of each of the 3 beasts is seen incorporated into the Dragon itself.

Revelation 13:1-4
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The End of the 4 Kingdoms

The other reason that Daniel 7 speaks to a completely future view of all 4 kingdoms is evidenced in what happens at their end when Yeshua sets up His Messianic Kingdom and the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our God.

Daniel 7:9-12
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before[H6925] him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before[H6925] him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The 4th beast, representing the 11 kings in the Middle East headed by the false christ, is slain and cast into the lake of fire. This fits because God will need to destroy the wicked out of the land to give it to Israel when they come out of the wilderness as their promised inheritance.

However, all 3 of the other beasts lose their power. This makes sense because the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our God and His Christ so they would have no more dominion. Yet their lives are prolonged. Now these 3 represent kings of kingdoms, so it would seem to point to the members of these once kingdoms now continuing to exist in the world, yet have no power because it is all given to Yeshua.

What does it mean?

What I believe all this points to is that Daniel's vision in chapter 7 is a vision of the end times, future to both Daniel and us today. It's actually probably the first sign of the times we will see come to pass because the 10 kingdoms have to exist for the little horn to rise up among them. Given the 10:1 ratio of Middle East kingdoms, it would seem to indicate that we will see in the future a consolidation of power amongst the Islamic kingdoms of the Middle East, perhaps in a Caliphate to unite against Israel, who they see in their eschatology as having the Dajjal rise to power against whom they fight. Or perhaps it will be a little less antagonistic and we'll see the Abraham Accords bring 10 Islamic kingdoms together in seeming peace with Israel.

However, we know 3 of those 10 kingdoms will fall before the little horn, so this little horn will have power over the 10, and after showing that power, they will give their power over to him because God puts it in their hearts to fulfill His will. Revelation 17:16-18

As for the first 3 introduced kingdoms, we can speculate all day on those. One thing seems clear, that similar to the 10 horns being part of the 4th beast, the other 3 animals have elements of multiple kingdoms internal to them as well. Additionally, since the 4th beast is the Middle East, the other 3 must represent 3 other "corners" of the world. Could it be alliances like BRICS or NATO or some other thing? Possibly, but I personally don't feel comfortable speculating too much until the 10 we have a more solid foundation about are on the scene. Then it may be easier to discern.

So I think the Holy Spirit has given us Daniel's vision of a time where there are diverse powers controlling the 4 corners of the world. They are explicitly distinct from each other, which would indicate a time before the world gives their power over to the false christ who controls the 4th beast as its little horn.

And I think the Holy Spirit has given us John's vision of a time where the whole world gives their power to the Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, where we see these same 3 animal kinds incorporated as aspects of the Dragon, doing his bidding and drinking from the cup of the fierceness of the harlot's fornication with a false god.

In other words, I think we are given a view from Daniel of the first half of the 70th week of Daniel, the rise of the false christ and consolidation of his power in the Middle East through war and defeating Israel's enemies. Then John shows us the second half of the 70th week, where the world has capitulated to his power and he rules from Jerusalem in a false messianic kingdom for the short time he has.

In the midst of that week, the 7th head represented by the little horn during the first half of the week, the leader from the line of David is killed and God sends a strong delusion that they believe the lie that he is the messiah, and the 7th head becomes the 8th, the head of the Dragon carrying apostate Jerusalem on his back as they are deceived into believing the Dragon in sheeps clothing is their messiah.

Why Historical Kingdoms?

As for the identification of these animals to historical kingdoms, the only reason I can think of to even go down that route is if one believes that Daniel 2's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream is somehow associated with Daniel 7's interpretation of Daniel's dream about the end times. I don't think this is a valid position to take as there is no Biblical reason to try and associate statue metals to animal types, especially in light of the above distinction from the text of the dream itself that the 4 kingdoms of Daniel 7 are all yet future to us today.

[Michael37]

49 minutes ago, Triton57 said:

I don't think we can connect Daniel 7 to historical kingdoms, they must be future kingdoms. I'm not going to try and guess at any except the 4th kingdom because that's the only one we really have much else described about in prophecy. This conclusion can be made through a logical examination of the text itself in Daniel 7 along with explicit connections of the animal kinds listed there.

The 4th king/kingdom has 10 horns, each themselves representing kings/kingdoms. We therefore know logically that the 4th beast is an alliance of kingdoms united in power.

We also know the 4th kingdom with 10 horns is explicitly tied to the end times, meaning that its depiction is something yet future.

However, we can deduce from the rest of Daniel 7 that these 10 kings/kingdoms of the 4th beast must exist in the Middle East because among them rises a little horn, which is associated with the false christ. The false christ makes his seat of power in the temple of God in Jerusalem. This fits with the idea of the little horn coming up among the 10 because while he is little and the 10 are not, he defeats 3 of them. This would point to "little" referring not to power, but to the size of his kingdom. In the Middle East, today at least, we can see many large kingdoms that both exist and are antagonistic to 1 smaller kingdom.

Diverse & Coexistent

Additionally, these 4 beasts are diverse from each other, and also coexist with each other. This eliminates the possibility that these are successive kingdoms that consume each other in the historical sense.

Daniel 7:3, 7
And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. ... After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it[H6925]; and it had ten horns.

"Before" can be both spacial and temporal, and I would encourage everyone to look at everywhere it is used in the Old Testament and decide for themselves. I will just pick a couple of them since it occurs 46 times in 38 verses. Either way actually doesn't change my view because this being spacial is not the only reason Daniel 7 is placed during the end times in its entirety, but I do believe it is spacial in usage. How does just Daniel use this word consistently?

 

Daniel 2:10-11, 24, 36
The Chaldeans answered before[H6925] the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore [there is] no king, lord, nor ruler, [that] asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean. And [it is] a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before[H6925] the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh. ... Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise [men] of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise [men] of Babylon: bring me in before[H6925] the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation. ... This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before[H6925] the king.

 

Daniel 3:13
Then Nebuchadnezzar in [his] rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before[H6925] the king.

 

Daniel 4:6-8
Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise [men] of Babylon before[H6925] me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream. Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before[H6925] them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof. But at the last Daniel came in before me,[H6925] whose name [was] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods: and before[H6925] him I told the dream, [saying],"

 

Daniel 5:13, 15, 17, 19
Then was Daniel brought in before[H6925] the king. [And] the king spake and said unto Daniel, [Art] thou that Daniel, which [art] of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry? ... And now the wise [men], the astrologers, have been brought in before[H6925] me, that they should read this writing, and make known unto me the interpretation thereof: but they could not shew the interpretation of the thing: ... Then Daniel answered and said before[H6925] the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation. ... And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him:[H6925] whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down."

 

Daniel 6:10-13, 18, 22
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before[H6925] his God, as he did aforetime. Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before[H6925] his God. Then they came near, and spake before[H6925] the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing [is] true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. Then answered they and said before[H6925] the king, That Daniel, which [is] of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day. ... Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before[H6925] him: and his sleep went from him. ... My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before[H6925] him innocency was found in me; and also before[H6925] thee, O king, have I done no hurt.

 

Daniel 7:8, 10, 13, 20
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before[H6925] whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ... A fiery stream issued and came forth from before[H6925] him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before[H6925] him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. ... I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before[H6925] him. ... And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before[H6925] whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.

 

Even the times in chapter 7 that are part of the same vision, every use is spacial, not temporal. Did a little horn came up before the 3 fell temporally, or before whom they fell spacially? Could ten thousand exist before God did? Honestly, in all cases I see it used they are spacial, did I miss something? Is this one use really different than all the rest in meaning and we're talking time and not space?

Coexistent in End Times

The 4th beast can be said to consume the other 3 in the sense that they give their power to the 4th beast however. We know this because the only other place where a lion, bear, leopard, and 10-horned beast are mentioned together is Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, which speaks of the false christ's kingdom. Since the world gives their power to the false chirst, who has power as the 4th beast, this makes sense that aspects of each of the 3 beasts is seen incorporated into the Dragon itself.

Revelation 13:1-4
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The End of the 4 Kingdoms

The other reason that Daniel 7 speaks to a completely future view of all 4 kingdoms is evidenced in what happens at their end when Yeshua sets up His Messianic Kingdom and the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our God.

Daniel 7:9-12
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before[H6925] him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before[H6925] him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The 4th beast, representing the 11 kings in the Middle East headed by the false christ, is slain and cast into the lake of fire. This fits because God will need to destroy the wicked out of the land to give it to Israel when they come out of the wilderness as their promised inheritance.

However, all 3 of the other beasts lose their power. This makes sense because the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our God and His Christ so they would have no more dominion. Yet their lives are prolonged. Now these 3 represent kings of kingdoms, so it would seem to point to the members of these once kingdoms now continuing to exist in the world, yet have no power because it is all given to Yeshua.

What does it mean?

What I believe all this points to is that Daniel's vision in chapter 7 is a vision of the end times, future to both Daniel and us today. It's actually probably the first sign of the times we will see come to pass because the 10 kingdoms have to exist for the little horn to rise up among them. Given the 10:1 ratio of Middle East kingdoms, it would seem to indicate that we will see in the future a consolidation of power amongst the Islamic kingdoms of the Middle East, perhaps in a Caliphate to unite against Israel, who they see in their eschatology as having the Dajjal rise to power against whom they fight. Or perhaps it will be a little less antagonistic and we'll see the Abraham Accords bring 10 Islamic kingdoms together in seeming peace with Israel.

However, we know 3 of those 10 kingdoms will fall before the little horn, so this little horn will have power over the 10, and after showing that power, they will give their power over to him because God puts it in their hearts to fulfill His will. Revelation 17:16-18

As for the first 3 introduced kingdoms, we can speculate all day on those. One thing seems clear, that similar to the 10 horns being part of the 4th beast, the other 3 animals have elements of multiple kingdoms internal to them as well. Additionally, since the 4th beast is the Middle East, the other 3 must represent 3 other "corners" of the world. Could it be alliances like BRICS or NATO or some other thing? Possibly, but I personally don't feel comfortable speculating too much until the 10 we have a more solid foundation about are on the scene. Then it may be easier to discern.

So I think the Holy Spirit has given us Daniel's vision of a time where there are diverse powers controlling the 4 corners of the world. They are explicitly distinct from each other, which would indicate a time before the world gives their power over to the false christ who controls the 4th beast as its little horn.

And I think the Holy Spirit has given us John's vision of a time where the whole world gives their power to the Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, where we see these same 3 animal kinds incorporated as aspects of the Dragon, doing his bidding and drinking from the cup of the fierceness of the harlot's fornication with a false god.

In other words, I think we are given a view from Daniel of the first half of the 70th week of Daniel, the rise of the false christ and consolidation of his power in the Middle East through war and defeating Israel's enemies. Then John shows us the second half of the 70th week, where the world has capitulated to his power and he rules from Jerusalem in a false messianic kingdom for the short time he has.

In the midst of that week, the 7th head represented by the little horn during the first half of the week, the leader from the line of David is killed and God sends a strong delusion that they believe the lie that he is the messiah, and the 7th head becomes the 8th, the head of the Dragon carrying apostate Jerusalem on his back as they are deceived into believing the Dragon in sheeps clothing is their messiah.

Why Historical Kingdoms?

As for the identification of these animals to historical kingdoms, the only reason I can think of to even go down that route is if one believes that Daniel 2's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream is somehow associated with Daniel 7's interpretation of Daniel's dream about the end times. I don't think this is a valid position to take as there is no Biblical reason to try and associate statue metals to animal types, especially in light of the above distinction from the text of the dream itself that the 4 kingdoms of Daniel 7 are all yet future to us today.

Let's look at Daniel 8

Daniel's Vision of a Ram and a Goat (Daniel 8:1-27):

• Vision: Daniel sees a ram and a goat in conflict, with the goat eventually defeating the ram.

• Interpretation: The angel Gabriel interprets this as the kings of Media and Persia (ram) and Greece (goat), with the notable horn representing Alexander the Great.

No need to speculate

Dan 8:15-27  Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.  (16)  And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."  (17)  So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."  (18)  Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright.  (19)  And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.  (20)  The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.  (21)  And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.  (22)  As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.  (23)  "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.  (24)  His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.  (25)  "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.  (26)  "And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future."  (27)  And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick for days; afterward I arose and went about the king's business. I was astonished by the vision, but no one understood it.

Every little bit of history contributes to the future.

[Dennis1209]

Thus far, I am impressed with the accurate history @Michael37 and others have presented.

I thought I would fit this in. I count 21 names and titles for the little horn (Antichrist), which tells us more about him. One of his names is:

The Assyrian:

Isaiah 10:5 (KJV) O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Assyria, the rod of my anger, Yahweh used Assyria to punish Israel. Victory in the ancient world was often attributed to the superiority of one’s god. Yahweh is thus presented as truly superior—He, not Assyria’s god, is behind their success. The foreign nations are simply tools in the hands of Yahweh. There’s a long history of Assyria oppressing and enslaving Israel. The Assyrians were Semites (Gen. 10:22), but in the process of time, non-Semite tribes mingled with the inhabitants. They were a military people, the “Romans of the East.”

The above gives us a clue as to the Little Horn’s nationality of the ancient lands, juxtaposing it to modern borders, Macedonia, Asia Minor, Egypt, or Mesopotamia.

Daniel 11:37 (KJV) Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

466 אֱלֹהִים (ʾ^ělō·hîm): n.masc.; ≡ Str 430; TWOT 93c

1.             LN 12.22 God, i.e., the true God, note: though the form is a grammatical plural, the meaning is singular and many sources think it implies a majesty or stateliness (Ge 1:1); ^[1]

This verse gives us a lot to ponder. We can surmise that his ancestors believed in the One True Living God, so he comes from a lineage of believers with a history.

No desire for women could mean several things: a flaming open homosexual, religiously celibate, impotent, or something else.

Only two people in the Bible are said “to have gone to their own place,” Judas Iscariot and the Antichrist. I wrestle with the notion Judas Iscariot could be the Antichrist. Iscariot, son of Simon, is most likely a place of origin, but it is not connected to Assyria.  

Two other considerations: The Eastern leg of the Roman Empire lasted a millennium longer than the Western leg, and what is the predominant religion of that leg?

Rome was never militarily defeated; it simply fizzled out, or was it transformed in the Western leg and continued as the ROMAN Catholic Church, a merger between church and state under Constantine the Great in the 4^th century?

Suppose we are at the tail end of the end times, as I suspect. The United Nations and its alphabet agencies represent and operate the world government. The implementation of UN Agendas 2021 and 2030, which structured the New World Order, has initiated it. They are amassing global strength, and I do not see them going away anytime soon.

With that global structure in place, it seems more than plausible that the Little Horn will rise through the UN ranks with a proven track record, possibly becoming the UN Secretary-General as a stepping stone, or perhaps the President of the European Union, or both.

This generation is seeing everything align and unfold.

 

 

---

^[1] James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : No desire for womenHebrew (Old Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

[Triton57]

20 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Let's look at Daniel 8

Daniel's Vision of a Ram and a Goat (Daniel 8:1-27):

• Vision: Daniel sees a ram and a goat in conflict, with the goat eventually defeating the ram.

• Interpretation: The angel Gabriel interprets this as the kings of Media and Persia (ram) and Greece (goat), with the notable horn representing Alexander the Great.

No need to speculate

Dan 8:15-27  Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.  (16)  And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."  (17)  So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."  (18)  Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright.  (19)  And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.  (20)  The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.  (21)  And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.  (22)  As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.  (23)  "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.  (24)  His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.  (25)  "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.  (26)  "And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future."  (27)  And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick for days; afterward I arose and went about the king's business. I was astonished by the vision, but no one understood it.

Every little bit of history contributes to the future.

I agree, there is a very interesting bit of foreshadowing tied to the little horn that also can be seen in Daniel 7 and Daniel 11-12.

 

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Yeshua makes a point to point to Daniel regarding this pivotal event that should trigger the fleeing of those in Judea to the mountains. And I think a lot of the confusion in Daniel, with historical passages being shoehorned to connect to the future has to do with the purposes behind some of these visions, to foreshadow the future pivotal event and use a historical example of it for our understanding.

 

As you point out, Daniel 8 is tied to Medo-Persia's conquering by Greece and the subsequent kingdoms that arose from that, no speculation required. Additionally, we can see from the historical records that the whole of Daniel 8 was fulfilled historically.

 

Foreshadows

 

While "in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]" and "shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days" can also be interpreted as fitting in the historical record in Daniel's future, there are elements of Daniel 8 that point to the "time of the end." However, these are really just foreshadows meant to serve the purpose of having anyone taking Yeshua's hint to look at Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation see the connections.

 

Daniel 8:17
So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision.

 

The Little Horn

 

Daniel 8:9-12
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land]. And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

This is the one section of the vision's interpretation that would seem to point us to the future. Not because of the "little horn," that's just an associative connection to the future. Antiochus IV was called the little horn because in these visions and elsewhere, the horn is associated with a king of a kingdom. However, I'm not aware of any time that Antiochus IV waxed great to the host of heaven and cast some of the stars to the ground. That's very symbolic language suggestive of the Dragon. Antiochus IV also didn't magnify himself to the prince of the host, hinting at the idea of elevating himself to god status. I believe our minds are supposed to be brought to the future events, an association of the two for understanding.

 

But there are also some key differences. In Daniel 8, this little horn comes up out of one of four notable horns, Alexander's 4 generals, that followed the great horn, Alexander the Great. He's not the great horn, he's a little offshoot horn from one of 4 notable ones. In Daniel 7, the little horn comes up among 10 horns, which are on the 4th beast with 10 horns, and he plucks up 3 of them who fall before him. These are two very different origin stories, even though they are both little horns.

 

Furthermore, the foreshadow would seem to correlate the historical Antiochus IV with the future man of sin in how they come to power, since Antiochus IV came from a 4th kingdom divided from the great notable horn and the man of sin yet future arises from the 4th kingdom in Daniel 7 as a little horn as well. Does this mean that Daniel 8 is future or Daniel 7 is history?

 

No, I think that while both are little horns that come out of a 4th kingdom, they depict two quite different origins. I think the point is to make an association between the historical record and the future event. So Yeshua pointed to Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation, and Daniel gives 4 accounts in different visions, 2 future to him and historical to us and 2 future to all of us as of today.

 

Historical Fulfillment is History

 

All other elements of Daniel 8 are history. Media, representing the smaller horn that came up first on the Ram, and Persia, the larger horn that came up last are historical in nature, as you pointed out. Likewise the goat with a great notable horn between his eyes that stamped on and defeated the ram. We see this same kind of depiction of stamping the residue in the end-time 4th kingdom with 10 horns as well, but just as the little horn represents a small kingdom, stamping is the causing of utter submission of the one on the ground.

 

Daniel 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy(H7922 - cunning, craftiness) also he shall cause craft(H4820 - deceit, treachery) to prosper in his hand(H3027 - power, strength); and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

I'm not a historian, but this is what I found in my research. Antiochus IV Epiphanes, whose name means "God Manifest," rose to power began when he was a political hostage of Rome until 187 BC when he was exchanged for Demetrius I Soter, the son and heir of Seleucus. His older brother Seleucus IV Philopator had taken the throne a year before his release and Antiochus was in Athens with his brother in 175 BC when his brother was assassinated, according to some sources, by the government minister Heliodorus who proclaimed himself regent. Seleucus’ legitimate heir Demetrius I Soter was still a hostage in Rome, so Antiochus seized the throne for himself, proclaiming himself co-regent with another son of Seleucus, an infant named Antiochus.

 

Antiochus IV was extravagant, taking money from the Seleucid treasury to scatter on the streets to the common people, give unexpected gifts to people he didn’t know, hold banquets and parades, etc. He also attempted to maintain good relations with Rome, paying them the money owed and, with the help of Eumenes II, securing a new treaty of friendship with Rome. It was likely through this political maneuvering, flatteries, deceit, and cunning that he became as powerful as he did. In other words, he was a great politician.

 

His "policy" and "craft" were demonstrated when he seemed to have some advance warning of an attack by King Ptolemy VI Philometor and they were attacked and defeated by Antiochus IV. He didn’t always have the political upper hand though. In 168 BC, he went to attack Egypt a second time, but was given a message from the Roman senate to either withdraw or consider himself at war with Rome. This embarrassing put down was followed shortly after when he was traveling back North.

 

He later came back to take away the daily, sacrificed a pig on the altar, and put up idols in the temple and all around the land. This abomination in God's temple caused it to be desolate of His presence, no longer being sanctified for service. There was a process for purification and re-dedication, but that was going to take some time as the Maccabean revolt was in progress.

 

2,300 Days

 

One of the most amazing historical fulfillments lies in the great detail of the 2,300 days. I see a lot of people trying to take this very precise timeframe and connect it to the end because of several elements that seem related. But again, I think this is intended to be an example and foreshadow of what is to come for our understanding. This very detailed and precise fulfillment solidly locks it all in history, IMO.

 

Daniel 8:13-14
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

 

We see in Revelation 11:1-2 this same idea of "the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." We also see the transgression, or abomination, of desolation so naturally we want to associate that to the future end. However, if we have a historical fulfillment, we can then see this as fulfilled, yet a foreshadow for our understanding.

 

I actually learned of this from The 2300 Day Prophecy of Daniel 8 web page, which is no longer up and is only available via the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, so credit where credit is due.

 

In the Masoretic text, what is written as “two thousand and three hundred days” is actually “two thousand and three hundred evening (ereb) morning (boqer),” speaking to the evening and morning sacrifices. So when it says 2,300 days, it is saying 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices. Dividing this in two to get the actual number of days, it is 1,150 actual days. Thanks to the Maccabees, we have precise dates for the abomination of desolation and the cleansing of the sanctuary.

 

I Maccabees 1:54

On the 15th day of the 9th month of the 145th year [of the kingdom of the Greeks] king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God.

 

I Maccabees 4:52-53

And they arose before the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year, and they offered sacrifices according to the law upon the new altar...

 

If we calculate 365 days per year times 3 and add 10 days, that is only 1,105 days, 45 days short. Taking into account this was in 167 BC and the Julian calendar was not in use until 45 BC, and a separate communication from Herodotus from 445 BC, we see the ancient calendar was a 360-day calendar per year.

 

“Take seventy years as the span of a man’s life. Those seventy years contain 25,200 days without counting intercalary months. Add a month every other year to make the seasons come round with proper regularity, and you will have 35 additional months which will make 1050 days. Thus the total days of your seventy years is 26,250 and not a single one of them is like the next in what it brings.” | Herodotus, In a passage where he discusses Solon who is speaking to Croesus, a Greek king in Asia Minor, about the relativity of happiness in life, Solon cites the usual length of a man’s life.

 

25,200 / 70 = 360 days (without counting intercalary months)

1,050 / 35 = 30 days (value of an intercalary month)

 

Using the Greek calendar according to Herodotus and assuming that the years 146 and 148 were intercalary years, we come up with the following calculation: 9-15-145 to 9-25-148, the dates given in Maccabees from the desecration to the cleansing, is three years and ten days. Thus, the math sentence following the Greek calendar which was in use at the time the prophecy was fulfilled would be: (3 X 360) + (2 X 30) + 10 = 1,150.

 

Taking this into account, the whole of Daniel 8 is an account future to Daniel, but historical to us. It introduces the foreshadow of the man of sin, even to the rising out of one of four kingdoms and association to a little horn. There's much more detail and references to the Book of Maccabees and other elements here for those interested.

 

The Daniel 11 Connection

 

So Daniel 12 and 9 contain two future mentions of the abomination of desolation explicitly tied to the end. What's interesting is that Daniel 11 and 12 are really the same vision, but it transitions in a very interesting way from history leading to Antiochus IV to the future yet unfulfilled. In this I think Yeshua is again pointing to the fulfilled to expound on the unfulfilled. However, unlike Daniel 8 that is primarily historical, Daniel 11-12 spans that time and connects the two much more straightforward. I'm not going to go into all the detail here, but for those interested you can see it here.

 

Again, I'm not a historian and the history I got from the Eschatology in the Prophecies of Daniel website, more specifically, their study on Daniel 11. Basically Daniel 11:1-35 goes from the 3 Persian kings after Cyrus to Alexander the Great (336-323 BC), to Ptolemy I Soter (323-285 BC), to Ptolemy III Euergetes (246-221 BC), to Battle for Raphia in 217 BC, to Ptolemy V Epiphanes (203-181 BC), to Fall of Antiochus III Magnus in 187 BC, to Seleucus IV Philopator (187 - 175 BC), to Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164 BC).

 

Daniel 11:31-35
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, [many] days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.

 

This depicts Antiochus IV, as Daniel 8 did, with the abomination of desolation. However, this includes the depiction of the Maccabean revolt. But then it seems to continue talking about Antiochus IV, but the language is different and does not accurately depict what he did.

 

Daniel 11:36-40
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over."

 

This sounds more like the future false christ who enters the temple of God and declares himself to be god. Antiochus didn't do this, and this language shift combined with verse 35 ending with "And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed" leads me to see a transition from the foreshadow Antiochus IV to the one he is a shadow of, the false christ yet future.

 

Furthermore, you can see in verse 40 that the king of the South and North that were fighting each other earlier in the chapter are now each going after this "him." He is the king just depicted in the false christ language of verses 36-39, the false christ. And so we now see a transition to the rest of the chapter into Daniel 12:1 where we have the wars of the false christ where he is fighting the king of the South and North, defeating Egypt, someone to the North and someone to the East.

 

The last verse of 11 and first verse of 12 are connected to the idea of the mortal wound of the head in Revelation and the start of the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

Daniel 11:45-12:1
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

Jeremiah 30:4-7
And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

 

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-22
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

In this way I see Daniel 8 and the first half of 11 as historical references and foreshadows of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet pointing to a little horn from a 4th kingdom. That future event to which they point is likewise referenced by Yeshua in Daniel 12, as connected to 11, and in Daniel 9:27, which is during the fulfillment of "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city." It's all related explicitly to Israel in Judea and Jerusalem and the abomination of desolation is directly related to the Mosaic Covenant practices and ministering at the temple of God where He met with His people.

 

The first 69 weeks of Daniel started when Ezra returned to Jerusalem and taught the statutes of the covenant so proper sanctification of the temple could be done and it paused at Christ's first coming to redeem mankind as the suffering servant, and will not start the 70th week until Israel is once again turned back to the covenant and statutes of God given them as an everlasting covenant. It is during this 70th week they will be tried and some will fall, but some will have the scales drop from their hearts and recognize their Messiah coming in the clouds with great power and glory. When the week is out, the faithful of Israel will come out of the wilderness into the Promised Land in the fulness promised from the beginning and dwell safely in the presence of Yeshua, our Messiah.

 

I would agree that history contributes to our understanding of the future, it's just a matter of ensuring the narrative elements meant to be associated with the future are grasped while the historical elements remain in the past. Otherwise, a lot of confusion and theories can be built on speculations of historical events projected future, such as trying to figure out how the exact-days of 2,300 fit into the end-time scenario or the false christ coming from a revived something or other.

 

I think it's clear that the context of the 70th week is Israel, and a false christ would therefore be centered around the religious system of Israel. There will never be a Roman or Islamic man that will deceive anyone into accepting he is the anointed one of Israel. There is only one line that is expected from in the oldest religious texts upon which Christianity and Islam are built, the line of David. Anyone else wouldn't be a deception, and especially when the whole world is against Israel, they will only trust one from their own ranks.

 

I think Daniel 11:40-12:1 clearly connects the foreshadow to the real deal and shows him attacking and defeating surrounding Islamic nations such as those in the pleasant land (Israel), Egypt, to the North and East. This agrees with the idea that the little horn is one smaller kingdom amongst 10 larger kingdoms that hate the harlot, that great city Jerusalem, the seat of the little horn's kingdom. The Dragon is coming in sheeps clothing to deceive Israel into apostasy, a precursor to the return of Christ, and once he reveals himself and begins purging the land of Israel of anything that offends him, Yeshua will come to cut that time short, save the faithful of Israel into the wilderness and catch away His bride before treading the winepress of the wrath of God after the sixth and seventh seals.

[Triton57]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thus far, I am impressed with the accurate history @Michael37 and others have presented.

I thought I would fit this in. I count 21 names and titles for the little horn (Antichrist), which tells us more about him. One of his names is:

The Assyrian:

Isaiah 10:5 (KJV) O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Assyria, the rod of my anger, Yahweh used Assyria to punish Israel. Victory in the ancient world was often attributed to the superiority of one’s god. Yahweh is thus presented as truly superior—He, not Assyria’s god, is behind their success. The foreign nations are simply tools in the hands of Yahweh. There’s a long history of Assyria oppressing and enslaving Israel. The Assyrians were Semites (Gen. 10:22), but in the process of time, non-Semite tribes mingled with the inhabitants. They were a military people, the “Romans of the East.”

The above gives us a clue as to the Little Horn’s nationality of the ancient lands, juxtaposing it to modern borders, Macedonia, Asia Minor, Egypt, or Mesopotamia.

Given that Israel was in the diaspora since 70 AD, it's entirely possible that a man from the line of David could have a lineage that dwelt in Syria, but I don't think it's possible given the context of the 70th week toward redeeming Israel that they will be fooled by an anointed one coming from anywhere else but the line of David.

Yeshua warned of false christs, it was the first thing He went to when answering about the end times, and He repeated it several times. Check out this list of expectations from Old Testament prophecies of a coming anointed one in Israel, there's some interesting parallels that could be associated with several aspects of the coming little horn, leader of a little kingdom amongst 10 neighboring kingdoms.

• Mashiach - Jewfaq.org provides a list of expectations of the coming Messiah.
  • Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering.
  • The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David. The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David).
  • He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments.
  • He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions.
  • But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being. It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach."
  • The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem.
  • He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles.
  • He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship.
  • He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land.
  • All on earth shall worship him
  • He shall rule the earth and destroy the wicked

 

Deception begins with a bit of truth and slowly corrupts it into the lie that is accepted as truth by those deceived. Israel is blind to Yeshua as their Messiah, so they are primed for a false messiah who will begin by being exactly what they expect, but ultimately will not regard the God of their fathers because he will declare himself to be god. It's all a ruse.

 

Quote

Daniel 11:37 (KJV) Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

466 אֱלֹהִים (ʾ^ělō·hîm): n.masc.; ≡ Str 430; TWOT 93c

1.             LN 12.22 God, i.e., the true God, note: though the form is a grammatical plural, the meaning is singular and many sources think it implies a majesty or stateliness (Ge 1:1); ^[1]

This verse gives us a lot to ponder. We can surmise that his ancestors believed in the One True Living God, so he comes from a lineage of believers with a history.

 

Yes, this is what I see as well.

Quote

No desire for women could mean several things: a flaming open homosexual, religiously celibate, impotent, or something else.

 

Given how I think he will come, turning the hearts of the people back to God, I don't think the first option would fit, but the second one seems most likely to me.

Quote

Two other considerations: The Eastern leg of the Roman Empire lasted a millennium longer than the Western leg, and what is the predominant religion of that leg?

Rome was never militarily defeated; it simply fizzled out, or was it transformed in the Western leg and continued as the ROMAN Catholic Church, a merger between church and state under Constantine the Great in the 4^th century?

 

Daniel 2:41-43
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

I think the idea of mingling with the seed of men speaks to intermarriage in relation to saving the kingdom that was iron, but is now partly strong and partly week. It is at this time the stone cut without hands destroys the statue and it is no more.

I also think that Israel is central to the narrative of Bible prophecy and the Western Roman Empire was the final empire to exist until, and responsible for, Israel was no longer a nation. I think this is why the statue was destroyed then. Because as Daniel 9:26 points out, the Messiah came and died for us and established His eternal kingdom that is not of this world, but is a spiritual kingdom dwelling within each temple of flesh that cohabitates with the Spirit of God.

The Western Roman Empire, to your point, died from death by a thousand cuts with a whimper. That the Eastern and later Islamic Caliphates continued to grow and dominate off and on after is not relevant until Israel not only exists again, but is actually living according to the covenant they made with God at Sinai. So while Israel became a nation, the final week and events depicted within it of God dealing with Israel will not start until Israel returns to God. Conveniently, that's exactly what the Orthodox Jews expect to happen when Messiah comes!

Quote

Suppose we are at the tail end of the end times, as I suspect. The United Nations and its alphabet agencies represent and operate the world government. The implementation of UN Agendas 2021 and 2030, which structured the New World Order, has initiated it. They are amassing global strength, and I do not see them going away anytime soon.

With that global structure in place, it seems more than plausible that the Little Horn will rise through the UN ranks with a proven track record, possibly becoming the UN Secretary-General as a stepping stone, or perhaps the President of the European Union, or both.

This generation is seeing everything align and unfold.

---

^[1] James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : No desire for womenHebrew (Old Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

I agree that there is a new world order of sorts, I just think it will manifest in 3 areas of control due to the depiction of the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 that are contemporaneous with each other. So the UN, NATO, BRICS, or something completely different may make up those 3. The 4th would seem to encompass the Middle East. Once the false christ is in control, then it will be handed over to him.

Needless to say the next couple years will be interesting. If my understanding is correct, I think we'll see Israel continue to become more powerful and not put up with things like they used to. Once they crown their king David and he begins to build the temple/tabernacle, the Middle East will erupt and the 2nd and 4th seals will engulf the Middle East and potentially wider scope.

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Given that Israel was in the diaspora since 70 AD, it's entirely possible that a man from the line of David could have a lineage that dwelt in Syria, but I don't think it's possible given the context of the 70th week toward redeeming Israel that they will be fooled by an anointed one coming from anywhere else but the line of David.

Yeshua warned of false christs, it was the first thing He went to when answering about the end times, and He repeated it several times. Check out this list of expectations from Old Testament prophecies of a coming anointed one in Israel, there's some interesting parallels that could be associated with several aspects of the coming little horn, leader of a little kingdom amongst 10 neighboring kingdoms.

• Mashiach - Jewfaq.org provides a list of expectations of the coming Messiah.
  • Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering.
  • The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David. The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David).
  • He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments.
  • He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions.
  • But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being. It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach."
  • The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem.
  • He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles.
  • He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship.
  • He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land.
  • All on earth shall worship him
  • He shall rule the earth and destroy the wicked

 

Deception begins with a bit of truth and slowly corrupts it into the lie that is accepted as truth by those deceived. Israel is blind to Yeshua as their Messiah, so they are primed for a false messiah who will begin by being exactly what they expect, but ultimately will not regard the God of their fathers because he will declare himself to be god. It's all a ruse.

 

Yes, this is what I see as well.

Given how I think he will come, turning the hearts of the people back to God, I don't think the first option would fit, but the second one seems most likely to me.

Daniel 2:41-43
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

I think the idea of mingling with the seed of men speaks to intermarriage in relation to saving the kingdom that was iron, but is now partly strong and partly week. It is at this time the stone cut without hands destroys the statue and it is no more.

I also think that Israel is central to the narrative of Bible prophecy and the Western Roman Empire was the final empire to exist until, and responsible for, Israel was no longer a nation. I think this is why the statue was destroyed then. Because as Daniel 9:26 points out, the Messiah came and died for us and established His eternal kingdom that is not of this world, but is a spiritual kingdom dwelling within each temple of flesh that cohabitates with the Spirit of God.

The Western Roman Empire, to your point, died from death by a thousand cuts with a whimper. That the Eastern and later Islamic Caliphates continued to grow and dominate off and on after is not relevant until Israel not only exists again, but is actually living according to the covenant they made with God at Sinai. So while Israel became a nation, the final week and events depicted within it of God dealing with Israel will not start until Israel returns to God. Conveniently, that's exactly what the Orthodox Jews expect to happen when Messiah comes!

I agree that there is a new world order of sorts, I just think it will manifest in 3 areas of control due to the depiction of the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 that are contemporaneous with each other. So the UN, NATO, BRICS, or something completely different may make up those 3. The 4th would seem to encompass the Middle East. Once the false christ is in control, then it will be handed over to him.

Needless to say the next couple years will be interesting. If my understanding is correct, I think we'll see Israel continue to become more powerful and not put up with things like they used to. Once they crown their king David and he begins to build the temple/tabernacle, the Middle East will erupt and the 2nd and 4th seals will engulf the Middle East and potentially wider scope.

I will mention a few thoughts I judge as possibilities and controversial depending on one's exegesis and make a potential association. The Bible is a supernatural Book, and there is spiritual warfare constantly taking place. The angel sent to Daniel was supernaturally delayed for 21 days, etc. The supernatural evil princes of Persia and Greece had to be fought and contended with. The spirit of the Antichrist is not a phrase but an entity, on and on. We are given our defensive and one offensive weapon to stand and fight in Ephesians 6.

It will probably only make some sense if we take Genesis 3:15 and 6:1-5 literally. Satan mimics everything God does and wants to be worshipped and coequal with God. Satan will also have an unholy trinity: himself, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If the unholy trinity is but three, how do we account for the verse above in the plural? We have yet to see a multitude of false Christs and false prophets doing multiple miracles that are so powerful that IF it were possible,

Have you ever heard of the seed war, the first prophecy in the Bible?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Women do not have seed; only three definitions fit the context below, discussing two opposites.

זַרְעֵיכֶם: seed:—1. in genl. zeraʿ haśśādeh seed of the field Gn 47:22; zeraʿ = seedtime Gn 8:22; a) specific kinds of seed: of tree Gn 1:11, shrub 1:29, coriander Ex 16:31; zeraʿ ʾ^emet (vine) of good sort Je 2:21; b) seed (for sowing) Gn 47:19; m^eqôm zeraʿ place fit for sowing; bêt zeraʿ a portion of sown land 1 K 18:32;—2. of men & animals: zeraʿ ʾādām & zeraʿ b^ehēmâ seed Je 31:27, zeraʿ ʾ^anāšîm = son 1 S 1:11; zeraʿ = descendants of ʾiššâ & nāḥāš Gn 3:15, ʿôf 7:3; šikbat zeraʿ ejaculation of semen Lv 15:16;—3. offspring, descendants: a) sg. coll. 1 S 2:20; oft. of patriarchs, Gn 12:7 & c, & David 2 S 7:12; rāʾâ zeraʿ see offspring = have offspr Is 53:10; many phrases, e.g. zeraʿ ʾên lāh she has no children Lv 22:13, hēqîm zeraʿ l^e supply offspring for him Gn 38:8; b) single offspring, zeraʿ ʾaḥēr Gn 4:25;—4. origin, descent Ezr 2:59; Ne 7:61.^[1]

Noah was perfect in his generation because his DNA was intact and obviously not sinless.

Genesis 6:1-5 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, ² That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ³ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. ⁴ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. ⁵ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Who are the "they" below? And again, in which context is zera used? Interestingly, some of my top commentaries do not address some of these verses, probably because they are controversial.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed (zera) of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Could this be related to:

Matthew 24:37 (KJV) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In my opinion, Genesis six describes what was going on in Noah's days and the reason for the destruction of everything with the breath of life.

There are interesting things now occurring that have been covered up, lied about, and classified by governments that can no longer be denied or hidden. The rungs of the disclosure have been officially opened, namely UFOs-UAPs. With the increased sightings, videos, testimonies of thousands of reputable people, government whistle-blowers, congressional testimonies, and investigations, to quote Bugs Bunny, "What’s up Doc?”

Luke 21:26 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Powers (celestial beings, not objects like asteroids) of heaven, coming on earth. Given that our government suddenly admits in official reports that this phenomenon is real and poses a danger to national security and aviation, We have been conditioned with aliens and demigods for decades. I suspect these dimensional entities have an end-time prophetic role to play. Four times in Matthew 24, for emphasis, Jesus states, do not be deceived.

In the tribulation, people will see the supernatural, flying angels, demon locusts, calling lightning out of heaven, and all kinds of signs and wonders. What is being seen now is a dimensional glimpse of what is coming. Could what the globe is witnessing be the curtain call for the main play?

This is already too long, but I believe the story, witnessing, reports, and prophecy of the FATIMA incident relate.

 

---

^[1] William Lee Holladay and Ludwig Köhler, A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden: Brill, 2000), 92–93.

[Triton57]

On 1/2/2025 at 4:38 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I will mention a few thoughts I judge as possibilities and controversial depending on one's exegesis and make a potential association. The Bible is a supernatural Book, and there is spiritual warfare constantly taking place. The angel sent to Daniel was supernaturally delayed for 21 days, etc. The supernatural evil princes of Persia and Greece had to be fought and contended with. The spirit of the Antichrist is not a phrase but an entity, on and on. We are given our defensive and one offensive weapon to stand and fight in Ephesians 6.

It will probably only make some sense if we take Genesis 3:15 and 6:1-5 literally. Satan mimics everything God does and wants to be worshipped and coequal with God. Satan will also have an unholy trinity: himself, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If the unholy trinity is but three, how do we account for the verse above in the plural? We have yet to see a multitude of false Christs and false prophets doing multiple miracles that are so powerful that IF it were possible,

I've also thought about this and I see the Dragon, false christ, and false prophet more like the 180 degree deception of the Father, Yeshua, and John the Baptist. These were those involved in the parousia at the Messiah's first coming. This was the introduction of mankind, through the chosen people, to their Savior. Likewise, the unfolding of the prophetic narrative will see the introduction of a deception, a false savior introduced to the chosen people during their time of blindness to try them as gold is tried and purge the dross. That which remains will be exalted under their King Yeshua in the true Messianic Kingdom.

And just as Yeshua is the door to the Father and John came in the spirit of Elijah to point to the Messiah, the false christ is the door to the Dragon and the false prophet points to the false christ. In the deception, both are given supernatural power by the Dragon, appealing to the flesh. John and Yeshua came in humility, appealing to the Spirit.

I tend to see the Trinity idea in the Dragon, false christ, and the mystery of iniquity, or spirit of antichrist. Just as the Father and Son and Spirit are of the same Spirit of God, yet distinct such that there is one Spirit of God uniting them, so too does the Dragon take the role of fallen angel father of his false christ working under the same spirit of antichrist, denying the true Father and Son. This is all with the ultimate goal of the Dragon receiving the worship through his anointed, just as the Father is glorified by the Son and the Son glorified by the Father. Again, 180 degree flip, this is all founded on unjustified worship of a false god. And as you point out, this has been happening through history off and on, yet the same spirit of denial of truth under girds it all. This is also how I see the mystery of iniquity being at work through history to influence mankind, as I think thought is the voice of the spirit realm, and set up his pawns on the board to bring about that ultimate plan in an attempt to thwart God's design.

Similarly, each have their followers. Those who accept the Father and the Son, show the fruits of the Spirit dwelling with them in their temples of flesh. Those who deny the Father and Son will show the works of the flesh and have their temples marked as a sign of allegiance to their false god.

Quote

Have you ever heard of the seed war, the first prophecy in the Bible?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Women do not have seed; only three definitions fit the context below, discussing two opposites.

זַרְעֵיכֶם: seed:—1. in genl. zeraʿ haśśādeh seed of the field Gn 47:22; zeraʿ = seedtime Gn 8:22; a) specific kinds of seed: of tree Gn 1:11, shrub 1:29, coriander Ex 16:31; zeraʿ ʾ^emet (vine) of good sort Je 2:21; b) seed (for sowing) Gn 47:19; m^eqôm zeraʿ place fit for sowing; bêt zeraʿ a portion of sown land 1 K 18:32;—2. of men & animals: zeraʿ ʾādām & zeraʿ b^ehēmâ seed Je 31:27, zeraʿ ʾ^anāšîm = son 1 S 1:11; zeraʿ = descendants of ʾiššâ & nāḥāš Gn 3:15, ʿôf 7:3; šikbat zeraʿ ejaculation of semen Lv 15:16;—3. offspring, descendants: a) sg. coll. 1 S 2:20; oft. of patriarchs, Gn 12:7 & c, & David 2 S 7:12; rāʾâ zeraʿ see offspring = have offspr Is 53:10; many phrases, e.g. zeraʿ ʾên lāh she has no children Lv 22:13, hēqîm zeraʿ l^e supply offspring for him Gn 38:8; b) single offspring, zeraʿ ʾaḥēr Gn 4:25;—4. origin, descent Ezr 2:59; Ne 7:61.^[1]

Noah was perfect in his generation because his DNA was intact and obviously not sinless.

Genesis 6:1-5 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, ² That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ³ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. ⁴ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. ⁵ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Who are the "they" below? And again, in which context is zera used? Interestingly, some of my top commentaries do not address some of these verses, probably because they are controversial.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed (zera) of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Could this be related to:

Matthew 24:37 (KJV) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In my opinion, Genesis six describes what was going on in Noah's days and the reason for the destruction of everything with the breath of life.

There are interesting things now occurring that have been covered up, lied about, and classified by governments that can no longer be denied or hidden. The rungs of the disclosure have been officially opened, namely UFOs-UAPs. With the increased sightings, videos, testimonies of thousands of reputable people, government whistle-blowers, congressional testimonies, and investigations, to quote Bugs Bunny, "What’s up Doc?”

Luke 21:26 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Powers (celestial beings, not objects like asteroids) of heaven, coming on earth. Given that our government suddenly admits in official reports that this phenomenon is real and poses a danger to national security and aviation, We have been conditioned with aliens and demigods for decades. I suspect these dimensional entities have an end-time prophetic role to play. Four times in Matthew 24, for emphasis, Jesus states, do not be deceived.

In the tribulation, people will see the supernatural, flying angels, demon locusts, calling lightning out of heaven, and all kinds of signs and wonders. What is being seen now is a dimensional glimpse of what is coming. Could what the globe is witnessing be the curtain call for the main play?

This is already too long, but I believe the story, witnessing, reports, and prophecy of the FATIMA incident relate.

 

---

^[1] William Lee Holladay and Ludwig Köhler, A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden: Brill, 2000), 92–93.

Yes I first learned this from Chuck Missler. I actually think what most people think of in pop culture as aliens or extraterrestrials are celestial beings of a dimension we cannot experience except when it invades our lower dimensions. They were not formed of the dust of the earth and are quite literally not of this world.

I think a great short video that begins to help wrap our minds around it is Exploring Other Dimensions. The part where the 4D sphere enters into 3D space particularly struck me in terms of scripture.

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you."

Another video that I think helps explain what we cannot see, touch, taste, hear, smell, or measure scientifically (since science by definition limits itself to a little box), is I Made Minecraft, but it's 4D. It expresses the concept that heaven is not necessarily up in space as we understand it, but can be in the space right next to us, coexisting yet invisible in our corruptible bodies. But when we are as He is, we will see Him face to face, able to perceive what is currently locked away from our understanding.

The UAP is probably mostly just false sightings, but I also can't explain some of the things seen by people. They don't obey the laws of physics because they exist in dimensions beyond our understanding. They are the chariots of fire, balls of light, etc.

As for the mingling with the seed of men, I do think that was an idiom for intermarriage speaking of the time at the end of the Western Roman Empire. However, to your point that does not exclude the possibility of fallen angels or men influenced by them messing with the genetics in the form God designed them by various means, and/or the unleashing of supernatural entities we know will be part of the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

For sure a supernatural time is coming where our earth in our dimension will be invaded as God fights for His creation and people, and brings justice on those that corrupt it.

Edited January 4 by Triton57

[Dennis1209]

15 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I've also thought about this and I see the Dragon, false christ, and false prophet more like the 180 degree deception of the Father, Yeshua, and John the Baptist. These were those involved in the parousia at the Messiah's first coming. This was the introduction of mankind, through the chosen people, to their Savior. Likewise, the unfolding of the prophetic narrative will see the introduction of a deception, a false savior introduced to the chosen people during their time of blindness to try them as gold is tried and purge the dross. That which remains will be exalted under their King Yeshua in the true Messianic Kingdom.

And just as Yeshua is the door to the Father and John came in the spirit of Elijah to point to the Messiah, the false christ is the door to the Dragon and the false prophet points to the false christ. In the deception, both are given supernatural power by the Dragon, appealing to the flesh. John and Yeshua came in humility, appealing to the Spirit.

I tend to see the Trinity idea in the Dragon, false christ, and the mystery of iniquity, or spirit of antichrist. Just as the Father and Son and Spirit are of the same Spirit of God, yet distinct such that there is one Spirit of God uniting them, so too does the Dragon take the role of fallen angel father of his false christ working under the same spirit of antichrist, denying the true Father and Son. This is all with the ultimate goal of the Dragon receiving the worship through his anointed, just as the Father is glorified by the Son and the Son glorified by the Father. Again, 180 degree flip, this is all founded on unjustified worship of a false god. And as you point out, this has been happening through history off and on, yet the same spirit of denial of truth under girds it all. This is also how I see the mystery of iniquity being at work through history to influence mankind, as I think thought is the voice of the spirit realm, and set up his pawns on the board to bring about that ultimate plan in an attempt to thwart God's design.

Similarly, each have their followers. Those who accept the Father and the Son, show the fruits of the Spirit dwelling with them in their temples of flesh. Those who deny the Father and Son will show the works of the flesh and have their temples marked as a sign of allegiance to their false god.

Yes I first learned this from Chuck Missler. I actually think what most people think of in pop culture as aliens or extraterrestrials are celestial beings of a dimension we cannot experience except when it invades our lower dimensions. They were not formed of the dust of the earth and are quite literally not of this world.

I think a great short video that begins to help wrap our minds around it is Exploring Other Dimensions. The part where the 4D sphere enters into 3D space particularly struck me in terms of scripture.

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you."

Another video that I think helps explain what we cannot see, touch, taste, hear, smell, or measure scientifically (since science by definition limits itself to a little box), is I Made Minecraft, but it's 4D. It expresses the concept that heaven is not necessarily up in space as we understand it, but can be in the space right next to us, coexisting yet invisible in our corruptible bodies. But when we are as He is, we will see Him face to face, able to perceive what is currently locked away from our understanding.

The UAP is probably mostly just false sightings, but I also can't explain some of the things seen by people. They don't obey the laws of physics because they exist in dimensions beyond our understanding. They are the chariots of fire, balls of light, etc.

As for the mingling with the seed of men, I do think that was an idiom for intermarriage speaking of the time at the end of the Western Roman Empire. However, to your point that does not exclude the possibility of fallen angels or men influenced by them messing with the genetics in the form God designed them by various means, and/or the unleashing of supernatural entities we know will be part of the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

For sure a supernatural time is coming where our earth in our dimension will be invaded as God fights for His creation and people, and brings justice on those that corrupt it.

I am never shy about admitting some things I write and think are above my pay grade and an educated postulation. As Luke points out in Acts, we are to be Bereans and check out those things we study and hear, to see if they are so, and being kings and priests:

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

The late Chuck Missler, Michael Heiser, and Noah Hutchings are but a few I still hold in high regard and study, among others.

No one can make a case that fallen angels and demons are not many times smarter and more intelligent than us. The word demon itself is translated as intelligence. Satan and his minions know they are defeated and doomed, and when their time is short and up (as illustrated in Mat. 8:28 and Revelation).

They have no hope of victory; at best, they can possibly delay the inevitable and prolong it. That does not seem intelligent to me compared to other free-will choices they could have made.

Yes, I believe there are higher planes of existence we call dimensional, as illustrated with Balaam and Elisha with the host of heaven. As you mentioned, 95% of reported UAPs can probably be logically explained away, but many cannot. All the official government reports I have read and the areas they claim to be investigating blatantly omit the spiritual and dimensional. That alone defies logic and common sense unless there is an official agenda of evolution to be followed. I suppose CERN and LHC did not get the memo.   

Luke 21:26 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Before much more study, I had assumed what Jesus was inferring above could include objects like the soon-coming asteroid Apophis. I changed my view, mainly regarding POWERS, meaning, and scriptural usage (i.e., principalities and powers).

With the remaining 5% of those documented and recorded UFO phenomena, are they benevolent, malevolent, or deceptive? In Matthew chapter 24 alone, Jesus commands us not to be deceived (false Christ’s, signs, miracles, wonders, etc.).

Because of DNA's complexities, many geneticists now admit it could not have evolved; it had to be engineered (created). To fit the model of evolutionary theory, they now theorize and attribute it to panspermia.  

In my mind, all this fits together for the world’s greatest deception, and for those who have rejected the truth, the Lord will cause them to believe the lie. I believe this generation will witness it all, however God’s plan unfolds.

[Charlie744]

On 1/2/2025 at 11:36 AM, Triton57 said:

Given that Israel was in the diaspora since 70 AD, it's entirely possible that a man from the line of David could have a lineage that dwelt in Syria, but I don't think it's possible given the context of the 70th week toward redeeming Israel that they will be fooled by an anointed one coming from anywhere else but the line of David.

Yeshua warned of false christs, it was the first thing He went to when answering about the end times, and He repeated it several times. Check out this list of expectations from Old Testament prophecies of a coming anointed one in Israel, there's some interesting parallels that could be associated with several aspects of the coming little horn, leader of a little kingdom amongst 10 neighboring kingdoms.

• Mashiach - Jewfaq.org provides a list of expectations of the coming Messiah.
  • Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering.
  • The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David. The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David).
  • He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments.
  • He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions.
  • But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being. It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach."
  • The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem.
  • He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles.
  • He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship.
  • He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land.
  • All on earth shall worship him
  • He shall rule the earth and destroy the wicked

 

Deception begins with a bit of truth and slowly corrupts it into the lie that is accepted as truth by those deceived. Israel is blind to Yeshua as their Messiah, so they are primed for a false messiah who will begin by being exactly what they expect, but ultimately will not regard the God of their fathers because he will declare himself to be god. It's all a ruse.

 

Yes, this is what I see as well.

Given how I think he will come, turning the hearts of the people back to God, I don't think the first option would fit, but the second one seems most likely to me.

Daniel 2:41-43
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

I think the idea of mingling with the seed of men speaks to intermarriage in relation to saving the kingdom that was iron, but is now partly strong and partly week. It is at this time the stone cut without hands destroys the statue and it is no more.

I also think that Israel is central to the narrative of Bible prophecy and the Western Roman Empire was the final empire to exist until, and responsible for, Israel was no longer a nation. I think this is why the statue was destroyed then. Because as Daniel 9:26 points out, the Messiah came and died for us and established His eternal kingdom that is not of this world, but is a spiritual kingdom dwelling within each temple of flesh that cohabitates with the Spirit of God.

The Western Roman Empire, to your point, died from death by a thousand cuts with a whimper. That the Eastern and later Islamic Caliphates continued to grow and dominate off and on after is not relevant until Israel not only exists again, but is actually living according to the covenant they made with God at Sinai. So while Israel became a nation, the final week and events depicted within it of God dealing with Israel will not start until Israel returns to God. Conveniently, that's exactly what the Orthodox Jews expect to happen when Messiah comes!

I agree that there is a new world order of sorts, I just think it will manifest in 3 areas of control due to the depiction of the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 that are contemporaneous with each other. So the UN, NATO, BRICS, or something completely different may make up those 3. The 4th would seem to encompass the Middle East. Once the false christ is in control, then it will be handed over to him.

Needless to say the next couple years will be interesting. If my understanding is correct, I think we'll see Israel continue to become more powerful and not put up with things like they used to. Once they crown their king David and he begins to build the temple/tabernacle, the Middle East will erupt and the 2nd and 4th seals will engulf the Middle East and potentially wider scope.

Wow! There is so much great information here... certainly too much to address in a single response, but what is clearly evident is how much of the Scriptures you must have read and studied and interpreted over the years. For myself, I have only studied Daniel and have almost completed Revelation - maybe another 2 months.

 

But anyway, rather that pick apart and discuss each comment you might be willing to entertain a sort of study / interpretation sharing that speaks to many of the events and actors in your post and certainly in this topic offereed my Michael37.

If interested, we can learn of the others interpretations as we might move through the more important chapters / verses in Daniel. Specifically, Daniel 2, which reveals, in my understanding, the "blueprint" for everything that would come into being over the following 2700 years.... meaning, the 4 kingdoms represent all the established and authorized kingdoms that God will decree that have come out of t he sea.... only these 4 come out of the sea and, where the 4th kingdom, in it's final form must continue until His second coming. God has limited the number of actors and kingdoms in Daniel to a relatively few so we can focus on them and their respective actors only. This will transfer to the book of Revelation without any hiccups. So, if you would like to do this we might simply start with Chapter 2 and what are your 4 kingdoms and then move on (after discussing the "interpretative sequence of verses" given to us in 2:41-45. Then, on to chapter 7. Please let me know if this interests you and all others can certainly comment on each of our responses...