The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[Keras]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The blood on Jesus's garments as He descends to earth is that of the martyred great tribulation saints.

Isaiah 63:1-6 proves you wrong.

It is the blood of the godless nations whose blood will splash Jesus' garments and spill over the ground. As described in Revelation 14:18-20 and it will be the Sixth Seal event. 

It is possible for you to admit error? 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

The blood on Jesus's garments as He descends to earth is that of the martyred great tribulation saints.

Revelation 6:10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

You are adding a presumption to the Word that is completely unsupported by the text. 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

It is the blood of the godless nations whose blood will splash Jesus' garments and spill over the ground. As described in Revelation 14:18-20 and it will be the Sixth Seal event. 

Keras, could you post the 1989 REB verses of Revelation 14:18-20 that you use - so that I can see what you are reading ?

 

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

His appearance in heaven in the sixth seal terrifies the wicked.  And is the sign of the Son of man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a.

The wicked, terrified as they will be, will then be convinced and lead by the beast-king, and Satan speaking out of the mouth of statue image, and the False Prophet, to make war on Jesus - to keep Him from executing judgment on them - because of the wicked's persecution and martyring of the saints.   Revelation 16:13-16.

So for 45 days, the armies gather at Armageddon, in Israel, and parts of them move down to Jerusalem to take half of Jerusalem as hostages (Zechariah 14) as part of their strategy.

Here is what the people on earth will see at the time of the sixth seal...

 

...at the end of the 45 days... the Father sends an angel out of the temple to say to Jesus, now is the time to carry out the judgment on the wicked...

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

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Verse 16 is the armies in the vicinity of Jerusalem, who will be holding half of Jerusalem as hostages, would then die, directly by Jesus who will be standing on the Mt. of Olives.

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17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (like Jesus had)

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.       

kvj

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Keras, to me, verses 17-20 seems to be talking about the armies of the wicked overflowing Israel, but outside of Jerusalem, being destroyed by the angel in verse 17 also having a sharp sickle like Jesus. 

So we have the armies surrounding Jerusalem destroyed by Jesus Himself.

And the armies overflowing throughout Israel, then immediately destroyed by the angel with the sharp sickle in verse 17. 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Isaiah 63:1-6 proves you wrong.

It might be that we are both right.

[Keras]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

His appearance in heaven in the sixth seal terrifies the wicked.  And is the sign of the Son of man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a.

The Lord does not appear at the Sixth Seal. The Godless peoples are terrified and dive for cover, they hide to avoid being seen; in the same way as sinners do now, thinking they can get away with their crimes in darkness. 

I do not wish to get into pedantic argument over the translations. They basically say the same. 

The Sixth Seal and the angel with the sickle, in Rev 14, must be the same event, there is nowhere else to place it. The sign in Matthew 24:30a, happens at the Return. 

[Last Daze]

3 minutes ago, Keras said:

The Lord does not appear at the Sixth Seal. The Godless peoples are terrified and dive for cover, they hide to avoid being seen; in the same way as sinners do now, thinking they can get away with their crimes in darkness.

Quite true.  People get a glimpse into the throne room at the sixth seal.  They see the sign of the Son of Man (the Lamb) and fear His impending judgment.  They will see the Son of Man later at the seventh plague.

[douggg]

19 minutes ago, Keras said:

I do not wish to get into pedantic argument over the translations. They basically say the same. 

I would like to see the 1989 REB translation of John 3:13 that you use to say that no humans go to heaven.

[douggg]

23 minutes ago, Keras said:

The Lord does not appear at the Sixth Seal.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

They see Jesus before the throne of God.   They know Jesus has wrath against them because he will have a sharp sickle in His hand.

[Keras]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

I would like to see the 1989 REB translation of John 3:13 that you use to say that no humans go to heaven.

The reason I do not like to argue over the Words of Jesus, is doing that may cause someone to abrogate, twist and make null and void what Jesus plainly said.  John 3:13 is not the only Words He spoke which preclude anyone going to heaven, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, Revelation 2:25, plus many other scriptures like Proverbs 10:30, +

4 hours ago, douggg said:

They see Jesus before the throne of God.

Rev 6 does not say anyone actually sees Jesus on His Day of wrath. Proved by Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11

[douggg]

keras, I am not asking about your interpretation of John 3:13.    I am asking for you to post the 1989 REB verse of John 3:13 - so everyone can read it for themselves.

If it were available online, I would just post it myself.