An End-Time Consideration

[Dennis1209]

34 minutes ago, John Christian said:

To me it is straightforward. They were the disciples converted by the Lord in His ministry but passed on during those 3.5 years.

Where in scripture may I read that for myself?

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Israel is the prophetic center of the Earth. It seems that most Biblical compass directions are given from Jerusalem. Writing is the opposite left to right and vice versa from the East and West of Israel. I am relating this to:

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (Lk 17:34).

As you know, Jesus talks to the apostles and answers their questions; therefore, He generally relates to Israel. I suspect “in that night” may be an allusion to thieves, not knowing when He will come. But anyway, I do not discount your thought, and it is an interesting one.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the East, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I suspect what Jesus says above is why many graves face the East. It would make sense that Jesus would return to the area over Jerusalem for the harpazo. I do not know, but I have it ingrained that the Rapture will be instantaneous globally. If so, Israel and the European continent could be experiencing nighttime and the opposite hemisphere day.

I suppose a global sweeping Rapture may be plausible, as in the rotation of the Earth staying at night. Is that how you view it?

Our Lord Jesus is presently sitting in the right of His Father's throne, which is situated above the highest heavens (Eph.4:10). When the time is right, our Lord starts a journey. In Revelation Chapter 4 He has descended to heaven and is there crowned and enthroned in His OWN throne. From there He descends through the stratosphere (no clouds) to the Troposphere (clouds) and pauses. The Overcomers are raptured and meet Him in the clouds. Luke 17, in the latter half, addresses the Kingdom of God.

A Kingdom is a sphere or area where a certain king dwells and rules. Jesus came the first time and said the "Kingdom was at hand". He had dominion over the demons so He could say, "the Kingdom is among you". Then He left for heaven, but entered into His disciples, so He could say the Kingdom is "within you". The Lord is King ONLY IN His Church in this age. The Gentiles rule the earth. Then, when Jesus comes to earth and defeats the Gentile military, "The Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of Christ" (Rv.11:15). In Luke 17 he spoke first of the kingdom within us ans then turns to "the day" when He comes again.

The text of Luke 17 is different to Matthew 24 simply because in Matthew 24 He spoke to His DISCIPLES and in Luke 17 he spoke to the Pharisees in verse 21. Then He turns to His disciples who are Jews. His words are directed at His disciples as BOTH Jew and Church member. As Jews they are not raptured. Our Lord Jess will burst out of th clouds over Jerusalem in glory with His angels. But as CHRISTIANS they must be aware that he will come at any time to rip Overcomer from the presence of the slothful Christian - taking one in rapture and LEAVING the unripe, immature Christians to be matured by the heat and dryness of the Great Tribulation. So Luke 17 gives the view from both sides.

Matthew does is slightly differently. He addresses the fate of Israel first from Matthew 24:1-31. His prophecy is from the point of view of Galatians 2 where the Apostles are sent to the circumcision. Then our Lord deals with the Church from 24:32 to 25:30. Like Luke, MORAL ISSUES are the indicators. The days of Noah and the days of Lot are the pointer. And it is here that the astute student may take some liberty. the Rapture is revealed IN TYPE. It is thus for learning but not doctrine. Noah is found (i) of the right "generation" and (i) is righteous. He enters the Ark BEFORE the rain starts and is born "above" the waters of judgment. So the Overcoming Christian. He must be born again and righteous. He is raptured BEFORE the Great Tribulation. There were 8 in the Ark - the number of resurrection. He spends the Tribulation "above" the judgment on earth.

Lot shows the reverse angle. Judgment is declared on Sodom. Lot is found IN Sodom interacting (in the Gates). Compare Revelation 18:4. An angel must save Lot but not "Above". Abraham meanwhile is "above" and at Hebron which means "fellowship". While Abraham is "above" - well clear of the judgment (Hebron is over 2,000 feet), Lot is at Sodom, the lowest place on earth. Lot never goes up to safety, but horizontally wher he commits incst and produces two of Isral's mortal enemies. Then Lot refuses Hebron and stays in the plain at Zoar - which means "insignificant". Lot is born of the same family as Abraham and although he is righteous, he dos not separate himself and dwells in Sodom. His wife becomes a pillar of salt showing that she was salt but salt in a pillar is only effective over a small area.

These two types show that only a limited number of Christians avoid the Grat Tribulation - the mature ones - the Overcomers (Rev.3:10). But the Kingdom produces a THIRD Type. In Matthew 17 "AFTER six days" Christ comes in His Kingdom. Elijah speaks for the living Christians chnaged and raptured. Moses speaks for the dead Christians, RAISED and rapturd - both to a high mountain. But only THREE of TWELVE Disciples "go UP" and meet Christ. NINE are LEFT. They are left in the Valley and overcome by a demon.

Thus, Luke 17 shows, ina hidden way, the split rapture. One is TAKEN and one is LEFT. BTH are Christians. They live and serve together but their being TAKEN is separate.

[John Christian]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Where in scripture may I read that for myself?

It’s not elaborated on in Scripture, like you said. My opinion is logical deduction based on the whole of Scripture.

Edited January 9 by John Christian

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, John Christian said:

This verse does: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The rapture will be in a twinkling of an eye, all genuine Christians worldwide at once will be taken away. I believe many left will be aware it has happened but won’t be able to do anything about it, obviously.

You might have missed @Dennis1209 key word - "instantaneously". The rapture is not instantaneous. The changing of our bodies is. A small detail.

But I am interested to know your reason for the belief that all Christians will be raptured at the same time. There are conditions for being raptured BEFORE the Great Tribulation. One is "taken" one is "LEFT" and their House is broken up. The Two Servants serve the same Master. Whether at the mill, the field or in bed together, these servants serve together and belong to the same house. Look at the grammar. They both have the same Lord.

 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour YOUR Lord doth come (Mt 24:41–42).

The word "therefore" makes this the conclusion of what comes before

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

No matter whose view is correct, the fact remains that time appears to be at hand according to scripture.

As always, it is a pleasure to chat with you, Marilyn.

I so agree with you Dennis, and always appreciate the discussion with you too.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Our Lord Jesus is presently sitting in the right of His Father's throne, which is situated above the highest heavens (Eph.4:10). When the time is right, our Lord starts a journey. In Revelation Chapter 4 He has descended to heaven and is there crowned and enthroned in His OWN throne. From there He descends through the stratosphere (no clouds) to the Troposphere (clouds) and pauses. The Overcomers are raptured and meet Him in the clouds. Luke 17, in the latter half, addresses the Kingdom of God.

A Kingdom is a sphere or area where a certain king dwells and rules. Jesus came the first time and said the "Kingdom was at hand". He had dominion over the demons so He could say, "the Kingdom is among you". Then He left for heaven, but entered into His disciples, so He could say the Kingdom is "within you". The Lord is King ONLY IN His Church in this age. The Gentiles rule the earth. Then, when Jesus comes to earth and defeats the Gentile military, "The Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of Christ" (Rv.11:15). In Luke 17 he spoke first of the kingdom within us ans then turns to "the day" when He comes again.

 

Hi Ad Hoc,

The first part of your comments are good. They are from God`s word. I appreciate them and I agree with you. 

[Marilyn C]

Now, some people have thought that the `two men in the field and one taken,` refers to the `catching away.` However a closer look at the scriptures reveals the truth.

`But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.`  (Matt. 24: 37 - 41)

People were taken away in the flood and people will be taken away in judgment when the Lord returns to judge the people of the nations and deliver Israel. 

Thus, the `taken away,` is being taken away in judgment Not the catching away of the Body of Christ.

Also, Jesus never revealed the Body of Christ when on earth. 

[Marilyn C]

Now Gk. `harpazio` means to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, claim for one`s self eagerly, to snatch out or away. 

Thus, we see that the `catching away,` is very quick and not a slow ascension like the Lord did in front of the disciples. 

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now, some people have thought that the `two men in the field and one taken,` refers to the `catching away.` However a closer look at the scriptures reveals the truth.

`But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.`  (Matt. 24: 37 - 41)

People were taken away in the flood and people will be taken away in judgment when the Lord returns to judge the people of the nations and deliver Israel. 

Thus, the `taken away,` is being taken away in judgment Not the catching away of the Body of Christ.

Also, Jesus never revealed the Body of Christ when on earth. 

Good morning,

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

For the longest time, I also believed these to be Rapture verses, but I have concluded otherwise after study. One only has to read how the days of Noah were. Verses 37-39 are judgment and punishment verses for the wicked and unaware. You are in good company in your view; most of my commentaries agree.

To paraphrase these verses, I believe the implication is: At the Lord’s 2^nd coming, those taken (removed) are all the wicked earth dwellers who rejected the kingdom of Heaven that was preached by the 144,000, Two Witnesses and flying angel. They are physically killed off, condemned, and set aside until the Great White Throne judgment.

Those LEFT (not taken) will be allowed to enter the blessing of the peaceful millennium reign of Christ, the kingdom of Heaven that comes to earth (Matt. 6:10). I suspect this is the equivalent to the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46.

[Eternally Gratefull]

31 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning,

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

For the longest time, I also believed these to be Rapture verses, but I have concluded otherwise after study. One only has to read how the days of Noah were. Verses 37-39 are judgment and punishment verses for the wicked and unaware. You are in good company in your view; most of my commentaries agree.

To paraphrase these verses, I believe the implication is: At the Lord’s 2^nd coming, those taken (removed) are all the wicked earth dwellers who rejected the kingdom of Heaven that was preached by the 144,000, Two Witnesses and flying angel. They are physically killed off, condemned, and set aside until the Great White Throne judgment.

Those LEFT (not taken) will be allowed to enter the blessing of the peaceful millennium reign of Christ, the kingdom of Heaven that comes to earth (Matt. 6:10). I suspect this is the equivalent to the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46.

I would agree. but they are not taken. They are killed. The birds will feed on their flesh so one will not be left. and the other taken away.