TEMPLE.....TO BE OR NOT PT 2

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

By the second beast coming out of the Earth, I assume we are talking about the False Prophet? I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

Intriguingly, only two people in the Bible are called the son of Perdition, Judas and the Antichrist. Judas going to “his own place,” sounds encrypting.

Why do you suspect the second Beast (False Prophet) is Jewish, not Muslim, or Catholic? I do not know, but all the detailed descriptions in Revelation, the history of the crusades-inquisitions, and symbology seem to point to the Vatican and its infallible leader, addressed as the holy father.  

At present, I cannot see Israel and the Jews signing a seven-year covenant with a Muslim under any circumstances.

Roman Catholicism is still heavily involved in Israel, particularly in Jerusalem, whereas I hear they control roughly 1/3 of religious Jerusalem at present.

We should not build doctrine on Types, Parables and(or Allegory. But we can use it to the fullest to reach an understanding. Added to this, we should not interpret scripture by any other means, except nature (Rom.1:18-20, 2nd Pet.1:20). So the Holy Spirit does not name the Beast directly, but almost does by giving multiple indicators. Here is what I see:
1. He is a man. This is not only said in Rev.13:18, but because God gave the earth into the care of mankind (Gen.1:26-28), even Satan must work through men (Rev.13:4)
2. He is a Roman. The grammar of Daniel 9:26-27 says he is a "prince" of the people who destroy the sanctuary. That must have been the second Temple, destroyed by Titus in 70 AD
3. He is a Roman. John said that he was one of six kings that ruled at his (John's) time (Rev.17). He is also a king that "was", "is not", "yet is". This means that He lived, died and will be resurrected. This is confirmed by him being the EIGHTH (Rev.17) - the number of resurrection. The kings mentioned by John are not all the Caesars, but the Caesars that ruled during John's long life.
4. H is a Roman. In Daniel, Christ is the Warrior Who takes Gentile rule away. He defeats the FOURTH Kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar - Rome
5. He is a Roman. The seven heads are seven hills. A number of towns and cities can claim to be on seven hills, but only one was Capital of a world power - Rome
6. He is a Roman. There have been six world powers from Egypt to Rome. Only one can claim the lood of the saints of Jesus Christ - Rome. the other five existed too early
7. He is Roman. The number 666 has been denied and has been the subject of fiddling. If you remove these arguments, only ONE MAN who was a world leader and Roman fits the Numerical value of BOTH Hebrew and Greek - Nero Caesar. The manuscript evidence that 666 is the number, and the fact that it has survived 2 Millennia, is strong proof that God preserved it in His Word to all men through the centuries.
8. The "sea" in Typology is the Nations (Isa.17:12, Ezek.25:3-5)
9. Israel is the "land" being "the sand of the sea shore"
10. The dead are in Hades. Thus, he comes out of "the Abyss".
11. God maintains sovereignty throughout. Notice the use of the word "it was GIVEN to him". The Beast does NOTHING without permission from God.

The Son of Perdition.
The word "huios" in the Greek is used mainly for a mature son who can inherit. The word for immature children is "teknos" (See Romans 8:14-16). This can be seen in Matthew 8:12. It should read "sons of the kingdom" (huios - Gk). That is, Israel should have inherited the kingdom of Heaven but did not. Thus, "Sons of perdition" indicates that they earned it by being mature (in evil). The Lake of Fire, which is used interchangeably with "perdition", was made for the Devil and his angels, but to our disgrace, the first inheritors are MEN (the Beast, the False Prophet and the Goats of Matthew 25). Angels only go into the Lake of Fire (or perdition) at the White Throne.

The Covenant Strengthened.
It is due to men's imagination (mine included) that "THE Covenant" of Daniel 9:27 is thought to be a Covenant between Israel and the Beast. But it is not. Which Covenant it is lies within the text. If the Beast is to break it by abolishing the Daily Oblation, "THE Covenant" is that of Law at Sinai. This Covenant of Sinai is the only Covenant that contains the Oblation. Israel cannot keep the Law without a Temple (and thy know it), so the urge to negotiate a Temple and then the renewing, or "strengthening" (Lit. Heb) of the Covenant of Law is great. To strengthen this argument is the parable of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24. The Parable focuses NOT on the Nation of Judah, but on the LEAVES. Israel can only produce "leaves" by keeping the Law. Ones "garment" is one's works (Rev.19:7-9) and the "leaves" are the garment of a Tree. A Tree is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9 etc.)

By careful use of the text, interpreting scripture with scripture and using words like the Bible uses them, we can come to an understanding that answers every valid objection and avoids using men's wild theories. But a man can still be wrong. The beauty of this all is that though it will be a momentous event, we should, by then, be in the clouds with Jesus - facing the Bema

 

[Neighbor]

Hi,  What is really amazing is for anyone to think Jews are of one mind. Especially if they are one.

Take care, God Bless.

[FJK]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,  What is really amazing is for anyone to think Jews are of one mind. Especially if they are one.

Take care, God Bless.

Two Jews, three views.

[Neighbor]

13 minutes ago, FJK said:

Two Jews, three views.

That was the favorite joke of my mentor from a reformed congregation helping me establish a local cemetery for burial of Jews. They had as a group been working on it 48 years. I spend two years with him and them on it before reaching fruition.  At the last minute we almost lost the deal when a neighboring Orthodox group got wind of it and wanted in on it along  with the reformed group.  Eventually they actually worked it out with me and the company I represented. Was an amazing process, quite the kick! Especially at the last minute literally when one of the owners of my company a Roman Catholic tried to sabotage the deal once he realized it might actually close.

[Neighbor]

A bit of a post script:

That was one of the most fun adventures in business that I had! Why we had to have Rabbis make decisions on what constituted separation from the gentiles in burial. Things like will a 24 foot roadway be sufficient? We settled on 30 feet, and then would ten feet of separation with a fence with a handrail be sufficient for part of the border that did not have a roadway option. 

Then I had or convince my company to allow Sunday burials! Oh boy was that ever a battle, but I did convince all that if we charged triple the regular  daily cost it would be economically viable, and that we could get our workers to work overtime for triple wages too.

Fun fun fun stuff all the negotiations; Owners, congregation members, Rabbis, workers. But it happened, then they wanted us to become their funeral director of choice and be trained by them in that regard too. That was really an exciting  time for me. A rather fond memory to this day.

 

Oh, then not to be outdone the Greek Orthodox church  group heard about it and wanted their own place too. Why sure, we can do that! And a Korean group and a Muslim group, and on it went.

Eventually we even busted the Roman Catholic diocese demand that Catholics be buried in Catholic cemeteries or not receive proper funeral rites of the Church. That one was huge!

[WilliamL]

20 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- Verse 1 alludes to Christ "parousia" in the clouds - for that is were we are "gathered".
- Verse 8 alludes to our Lord's " parousia" on Mt. Olives and the subsequent battle. ...

Thus there are TWO Parousias but ONE BEAST with universal power. ...

The TWO Parousias are again seen in Matthew 24. To Israel His Parousia is like lightening - seen by many. His Parousia to His servants, the Church, is like that of a thief.

By definition, there can be only one "THE/THY/HIS Parousia." Matthew 24:3, 27, 39; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thes. 3:13, 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thes. 2:1, 8

The anti-type example is when the Divine Presence entered the realm of this earthly world during the Exodus, and stayed here all throughout the events of the 40-year wilderness sojourn and through the conquest of Canaan. Same pattern for the Parousia/Presence in the End Times, of about the same duration.

Edited February 8, 2024 by WilliamL

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

By definition, there can be only one "THE/THY/HIS Parousia." Matthew 24:3, 27, 39; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thes. 3:13, 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thes. 2:1, 8

The anti-type example is when the Divine Presence entered the realm of this earthly world during the Exodus, and stayed here all throughout the events of the 40-year wilderness sojourn and through the conquest of Canaan. Same pattern for the Parousia/Presence in the End Times, of about the same duration.

This is how I see it. Ephesians 4 puts our Lord Jesus "far above the ALL heavens". For our Lord to be crowned and receive His throne He must descend to heaven (Revelation Chapter 4). To descend to the Clouds (1st Thess.4:13-17) He must descend through the stratosphere (no clouds) to the troposphere where the clouds are. Having judged the Church, our Lord descends from the clouds to Mt. Olives. He then Marches on Armageddon and fights the armies of the Beast, He then proceds to Bozrah and settles the score with Edom - and returns. In this single journey, that takes probably upward of seven years, our Lord would be "Present" above all heavens, then he would be present in heaven, then he would be present in the clouds, then present on Mt. Olives, then present in Jerusalem, present at Jezreel, present at Bozrah and present again at Jerusalem.

At each point of pause, He "arrives" and is "present" (Parousia) for a purpose. Thus, in ...
Matthew 24:3, seeing as His ultimate goal is Jerusalem and the Temple is the context, it would be reasonable to say His "Parousia in this verse" is Mt. Olives. This is also the prophecy of the angel in Acts 1.

In Matthew 24:27 the context from verse 1 to those "scattered to the four winds" (v.31) is Jewish. The "Parousia" is the clear air above Mt. Olives.

In Matthew 24:39 the Parousia is one of universal judgment. The seals that precipitate this horror are opened in heaven (Rev.6). He would be "Parousia" in heaven

In 1st Corinthians 15:23 His "Parousia" is in CONTRAST to His ABSENCE. It spans more than seven years as those resurrected are His. This would include the Church and Israel

And so each scripture with is "Parousia" must be taken with its wording and context, like 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 & 8 posted above.

[WilliamL]

6 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

This is how I see it. Ephesians 4 puts our Lord Jesus "far above the ALL heavens". For our Lord to be crowned and receive His throne He must descend to heaven (Revelation Chapter 4). To descend to the Clouds (1st Thess.4:13-17) He must descend through the stratosphere (no clouds) to the troposphere where the clouds are.

You presume, without evidence, that the "in clouds" of 1st Thess. 4:17 are earthly atmospheric clouds. Scriptures indicate otherwise:

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

Heb. 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,

Matt. 24:30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming epi/upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

None of these passages indicates that He is coming "to the troposphere."

[AdHoc]

12 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You presume, without evidence, that the "in clouds" of 1st Thess. 4:17 are earthly atmospheric clouds. Scriptures indicate otherwise:

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

Heb. 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,

Matt. 24:30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming epi/upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

None of these passages indicates that He is coming "to the troposphere."

It is a known meteorological fact that the earth's weather is in the troposphere. I'm surprised you didn't check it before you posted. If this is your only objection - I rejoice. We are very close to agreement.

[WilliamL]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It is a known meteorological fact that the earth's weather is in the troposphere. I'm surprised you didn't check it before you posted. If this is your only objection - I rejoice. We are very close to agreement.

Apparently you completely missed the meaning of my previous post. It wasn't about earth's weather, it was about what kind of clouds 1 Thes. 4:17 is referring to.

You have not provided one iota of scriptural evidence that the clouds mentioned are from earth's atmosphere. So your whole argument is based solely upon a personal presumption.