Does Heaven Actually Exist?

[Gracejj]

According the prayer that Jesus taught us.... i can say this for 100% that Heaven is the place where God's kingdom is/ will be  and Heaven is where God's will is done. 

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, Luther said:

That just doesn't sound like something God would do with His creation. I believe that since He had mercy on tens of millions of His elect, then He would then have mercy on the unsaved as well. 

It isn't like God hasn't been clear on this:
Luke 16:19 (KJV)

[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

People's opinions really don't factor in when it denies the clear teaching of Scripture...

[Luther]

10 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Suit yourself.

Please. Allow me to explain why, after 25 years of studying the subject, I have been left to this conclusion. 

You said: " When an unbeliever goes to hell they are alive and very conscious of their surroundings. They will be that way for an eternity and suffering in hell." 

I believe that the " lake of  fire" is the fire of God's judgement at the last day. Language that relates to this day like  fire, brimstone, smoke, torment etc. is symbolic, meant for us to understand the gravity of the situation. Here is a popular verse to justify "eternal torment":

Revelation 14:10 KJV

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

( This is what the last day is going to be like when Christ comes with the fire of judgement. Notice the similarity in Psalm 115:5-6):

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. [6] Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 KJV

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

( Whatever language God uses, the message is clear: everything sinful will be destroyed, and everything holy will be made new, glorified in God at that day). 

...................................................

( Final destruction of sin at the last day)

Revelation 21:3-5 KJV

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

( So here we have all of God's people in "the new heavens and Earth")

...............................

[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

( The former things are passed away. That means everything. Sin, the devil, anyone who will not be with Jesus [and it does bother me to say that]. All of it will be no longer remembered after the world is destroyed by fire.)

.................................

Isaiah 1:27-28 KJV

Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. [28] And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

.................................

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 KJV

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

( Please notice, that in Christ all are made " alive", to live with Him for evermore. If left in Adam, all will " die". No language of an eternity in a place of torture).

[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

( " The end" is when the body of Christ is delivered up to God, to reign with Him forever. The " wages" or payment for sin is death, which is the "last enemy" that is destroyed. No more remembered.)

....................................

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

( The "lake of fire" is a metaphor for the final destruction of death and the grave, otherwise known as "hell") 

Technically speaking there is only one verse I have seen that I cannot fully explain, Revelation 20:10:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is the ONLY verse that describes an eternal aspect to being " tormented". But you will notice the phrase " day and night" which has to be allegorical language because after this world ends there will be no more " day and night". But in light of everything else that we read regarding " destruction" at the last day, I don't consider this one verse to be a "game changer" so to speak. 

 

 

 

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Please. Allow me to explain why, after 25 years of studying the subject, I have been left to this conclusion. 

You said: " When an unbeliever goes to hell they are alive and very conscious of their surroundings. They will be that way for an eternity and suffering in hell." 

I believe that the " lake of  fire" is the fire of God's judgement at the last day. Language that relates to this day like  fire, brimstone, smoke, torment etc. is symbolic, meant for us to understand the gravity of the situation. Here is a popular verse to justify "eternal torment":

Revelation 14:10 KJV

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

( This is what the last day is going to be like when Christ comes with the fire of judgement. Notice the similarity in Psalm 115:5-6):

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. [6] Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 KJV

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

( Whatever language God uses, the message is clear: everything sinful will be destroyed, and everything holy will be made new, glorified in God at that day). 

...................................................

( Final destruction of sin at the last day)

Revelation 21:3-5 KJV

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

( So here we have all of God's people in "the new heavens and Earth")

...............................

[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

( The former things are passed away. That means everything. Sin, the devil, anyone who will not be with Jesus [and it does bother me to say that]. All of it will be no longer remembered after the world is destroyed by fire.)

.................................

Isaiah 1:27-28 KJV

Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. [28] And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

.................................

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 KJV

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

( Please notice, that in Christ all are made " alive", to live with Him for evermore. If left in Adam, all will " die". No language of an eternity in a place of torture).

[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

( " The end" is when the body of Christ is delivered up to God, to reign with Him forever. The " wages" or payment for sin is death, which is the "last enemy" that is destroyed. No more remembered.)

....................................

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

( The "lake of fire" is a metaphor for the final destruction of death and the grave, otherwise known as "hell") 

Technically speaking there is only one verse I have seen that I cannot fully explain, Revelation 20:10:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is the ONLY verse that describes an eternal aspect to being " tormented". But you will notice the phrase " day and night" which has to be allegorical language because after this world ends there will be no more " day and night". But in light of everything else that we read regarding " destruction" at the last day, I don't consider this one verse to be a "game changer" so to speak. 

 

 

 

I do not support your theology.

[Luther]

8 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It isn't like God hasn't been clear on this:
Luke 16:19 (KJV)

[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

People's opinions really don't factor in when it denies the clear teaching of Scripture...

 

And I think " people" should get a better understanding of God's word before they quote it. Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. A  "parable" is an earthly story (or in this case a story using earthy elements we can relate to) which contains a heavenly or spiritual narrative. 

The first red flag in your literalist mindset should be v. 22, when the beggar is " carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom". This statement alone disqualifies any further reading to be looked at on a literal basis only. Unless, of course you believe all believers are literally carried away into Abraham's bosom when they die. 

And you can go on and on like, do you really believe that someone in " hell" is going to be able to lift up their eyes and see heaven? Where everyone is nestled in Abraham's bosom? Or that we are still going to have the physical need for our tongues to be cooled? 

I'll tell you one literal reality I see here, in one verse, v.22:

If you notice, God wrote this in such a way as to illustrate the literal destiny of the saved and unsaved. Both had to be buried. But only the rich man's burial is in view. Interesting. The beggar has eternal life in heaven, the rich man is  "buried". In reality he has no "eternal life" in " hell", because " hell", or the grave ( OT #7585, sheol), is used interchangeably along with " pit". 

An excellent example would be Psalm 16:10 KJV:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

"Corruption" ( OT #7845, shachath), is also translated as " pit, destruction, ditch, grave". In the NT, it literally means " decay". 

We can go on and on. 

Revelation 20:13-14 KJV

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death and it's resting place hell or the graves of all the unsaved will be resurrected to " damnation" ( John 5:29), or cast into the " lake of fire"  (the judgment of God's fiery wrath at the last day, the second death).

Deuteronomy 32:22 KJV

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

( Literally/ figuratively a fire shall burn unto the lowest grave, approximately six feet. into the earth).

Isaiah 14:9 KJV

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

( This is literally the resurrection of the dead at the last day). 

 

Edited February 23 by Luther
Fixed a word

[irishbeast]

To add a layer. I wonder if also heaven is the same for us all. Is your heaven going to be the same as mine?

God is fair, so if someone follows the word all their lived then they will receive greater rewards than say a mass murderer. Think of the parable of the vinyard. Also 1 Corinthians discusses how works will be tested and rewards given accordingly. Which would suggest some get a "better" heaven than others. Its an interesting topic for sure

[other one]

I believe I have read in the word that if Jesus went away, he would return.   I also seem to remember that he's gone to build us a place and will put us there.

I read where John saw a new Jerusalem that is about 1,500 miles at it's base and 1500 miles high.  Even if it's a pyramid and not a cube, that's enough room for almost everyone who ever existed.  

Whether it's new Jerusalem here, or where the Father lives, I read that he will be among us so I can't really fathom it mattering in the end. Just so I can be with him.

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, Luther said:

And I think " people" should get a better understanding of God's word before they quote it. Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

Abraham wasn't real then...

5 hours ago, Luther said:

A  "parable" is an earthly story (or in this case a story using earthy elements we can relate to) which contains a heavenly or spiritual narrative. 

God only speaks truth parable or no... thus everything within the account of Lazarus must be truth or are you saying God uses things not true in parables?

5 hours ago, Luther said:

The first red flag in your literalist mindset should be v. 22, when the beggar is " carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom". This statement alone disqualifies any further reading to be looked at on a literal basis only. Unless, of course you believe all believers are literally carried away into Abraham's bosom when they die. 

Knowing God's Word is required to speak the things of God... 

2 Kings 6:17 (KJV)

[17] And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

[18] And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

[19] And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria.

Perhaps you should ask God to open your eyes about angelic host and their presence among us!

Hebrews 13:2 (KJV)

[2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

5 hours ago, Luther said:

And you can go on and on like, do you really believe that someone in " hell" is going to be able to lift up their eyes and see heaven? 

sounds as if you should read the parable itself before commenting on it... hell and paradise was in the center of the earth with a gulf fixed between...

5 hours ago, Luther said:

Where everyone is nestled in Abraham's bosom? Or that we are still going to have the physical need for our tongues to be cooled? 

Sounds like you believe this to be a false account... which would make Jesus a liar...
For myself I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you account for this!

 

5 hours ago, Luther said:

We can go on and on. 

No we can't for you are mocking the Word of God and I want no part with this!

[Luther]

20 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Abraham wasn't real then...

God only speaks truth parable or no... thus everything within the account of Lazarus must be truth or are you saying God uses things not true in parables?

Knowing God's Word is required to speak the things of God... 

2 Kings 6:17 (KJV)

[17] And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

[18] And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

[19] And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria.

Perhaps you should ask God to open your eyes about angelic host and their presence among us!

Hebrews 13:2 (KJV)

[2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

sounds as if you should read the parable itself before commenting on it... hell and paradise was in the center of the earth with a gulf fixed between...

Sounds like you believe this to be a false account... which would make Jesus a liar...
For myself I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you account for this!

 

No we can't for you are mocking the Word of God and I want no part with this!

You really think those things are going on right now with every soul that goes to heaven?

noun: allegory; plural noun: allegories

a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

"Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey"

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, irishbeast said:

To add a layer. I wonder if also heaven is the same for us all. Is your heaven going to be the same as mine?

God is fair, so if someone follows the word all their lived then they will receive greater rewards than say a mass murderer. Think of the parable of the vinyard. Also 1 Corinthians discusses how works will be tested and rewards given accordingly. Which would suggest some get a "better" heaven than others. Its an interesting topic for sure

The disciples and the least of the believers in Jesus Christ they all inherit Heaven. There is only one door to Heaven. Jesus will mix them up with the mature if we may say that and when I said the mature I fo not meant the dogmatic mature if that was truth then what we will have another Babylon. Those who have gotten some things straight then they can departed it to the new comers. 

There must be some protocol to follow and some order. Ask to meet the disciples and ask to see Judah that will be great. And Moses and Elijah and Enoch. What about Adam and Eve the two people who did not experienced life in the womb. 

And tell them that you wished that they didn't eat the fruit. Just try.

Edited February 24 by Your closest friendnt