Daniel 7

[Guest Stormy Monday]

54 minutes ago, FJK said:

Just a small question to understand where you are coming from:  Do you consider Catholics and Christians to be different, and if you do how?

I left this forum and deleted all my replies because of you ONCE before.  To answer your stupid question - we are all in the body of Christ regardless of what you think the difference may be.

Protestants and Evangelicals are the most divided sects in Christianity, and they continually divide the Body, and this forum is proof. I shouldn't have to spoon-feed this to you. The John MacArthur's and the like in this debacled religion destroys Christianity. 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Stormy Monday

[FJK]

1 minute ago, Stormy Monday said:

I left this forum and deleted all my replies because of you ONCE before. 

I was unaware of this, why didn't you inform me of what you found so offensive before you did?

 

In any event, are you suggesting that I am in control of your actions?  I've never thought of myself as being important enough to have that much influence on or authority over anyone at all.

May the Lord bless you and be your guide this day.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Stormy Monday said:

I left this forum and deleted all my replies because of you ONCE before.  To answer your stupid question - we are all in the body of Christ regardless of what you think the difference may be.

Protestants and Evangelicals are the most divided sects in Christianity, and they continually divide the Body, and this forum is proof. I shouldn't have to spoon-feed this to you. The John MacArthur's and the like in this debacled religion destroys Christianity. 

Hi @Stormy Monday

Please don't cast shade on Worthy Christian Forums or make barbed accusations against other members. 

Remember what happened to this account @fixerupper

 

[FJK]

12 minutes ago, Stormy Monday said:

You're a damn fool! 

Casting curses and calling people fools is a very unwise thing to do.

[Michael37]

2 minutes ago, FJK said:

Casting curses and calling people fools is a very unwise thing to do.

I've hidden his profane and abusive reaction and deleted his account. He was here once before and got his account banned so was being monitored.

[FJK]

Just now, Michael37 said:

I've hidden his profane and abusive reaction and deleted his account. He was here once before and got his account banned so was being monitored.

He is obviously encountering some serious spiritual difficulties, we should pray for him that he will overcome them in a manner that pleases God.

Sometimes when people act abusively and offensively they are calling out for help in the only way they know how.

[Michael37]

2 minutes ago, FJK said:

He is obviously encountering some serious spiritual difficulties, we should pray for him that he will overcome them in a manner that pleases God.

Sometimes when people act abusively and offensively they are calling out for help in the only way they know how.

Yes, there but for the grace of God it could be any of us.

[Sister]

On 2/15/2024 at 12:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

This is very nice! So easy to read and comprehend.

Thank you Charlie, I tried to keep it short and sweet!

 

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I believe we both agree that Rome (pagan or Imperial Rome) is the 4th kingdom in Daniel 2 and 7.

Yes, agreed.

 

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We both agree that the 4th kingdom will be  “divided” kingdom. 

The 4th kingdom on the image in Dan Ch2 is not divided, but a solid kingdom of iron.  When we come to the feet, it will be divided because it's the iron mixed with clay.

 

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We both agree that the iron in the feet represents Rome: 

Yes.

Quote

 

We both agree that the clay is NOT Rome, but the clay is part of / integrated into / joined to or with Rome but cannot come together just as oil and water can be found in the same bowl but it will always be two distinct elements.

We both agree that the book of Daniel carries straight into Revelation.

 

Exactly!

 

Quote

 

Okay, now the things we may disagree (not necessarily all and please add to this list if you desire).

Your chapter 2 has 5 kingdoms. You have determined the feet and the toes are a separate kingdom BEFORE THE 4th KINGDOM IS “DIVIDED.”

 

Yes.

 

Quote

My chapter 2 has 4 and treats the feet and toes as part of the 4th kingdom, BUT IT WILL BE “DIVIDED” BY A CERTAIN EVENT.

Ok, this is where the book of Revelation will clear this up.

Old Rome (the legs of iron) was in power during the days of Christ, and during the days when John wrote the book of Revelation about 70AD.

The image in Daniel Ch2 only shows only the dominant kingdoms starting from Babylon, but there were 2 before it - Egypt and Assyria.

So five kingdoms on the image, plus 2 before it = 7 kingdoms in total.

The total of 7 kingdoms represents the 7 heads in the book of Revelation because we are now including the extra 2 before Babylon.

  Revelation 17:10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

1. EGTPT - 2. ASSYRIA - 3. BABYLON - 4. MEDO/PERSIA/ -  5. GRECIA - 6. ROME.

7. NOT YET COME (REFORMED ROME)

 

Reformed Rome not yet come during the days of this prophecy, so feet of Iron and Clay not yet come, nor the toes.

Old Rome was there in power, not yet reformed. 

Feet of iron and clay are here now - but not quite reached the stage of the 10 toes when they are given power.

When did the Feet or iron and clay start?  I don't know.  It could be when the British Empire rose up as they controlled many territories throughout the world.  Is Rome hiding within the British Empire using that as their cover?  I don't have all the answers, just questions.

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Thank you Charlie, I tried to keep it short and sweet!

 

Yes, agreed.

 

The 4th kingdom on the image in Dan Ch2 is not divided, but a solid kingdom of iron.  When we come to the feet, it will be divided because it's the iron mixed with clay.

 

Yes.

Exactly!

 

Yes.

 

Ok, this is where the book of Revelation will clear this up.

Old Rome (the legs of iron) was in power during the days of Christ, and during the days when John wrote the book of Revelation about 70AD.

The image in Daniel Ch2 only shows only the dominant kingdoms starting from Babylon, but there were 2 before it - Egypt and Assyria.

So five kingdoms on the image, plus 2 before it = 7 kingdoms in total.

The total of 7 kingdoms represents the 7 heads in the book of Revelation because we are now including the extra 2 before Babylon.

  Revelation 17:10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

1. EGTPT - 2. ASSYRIA - 3. BABYLON - 4. MEDO/PERSIA/ -  5. GRECIA - 6. ROME.

 

7. NOT YET COME (REFORMED ROME)

 

 

 

Reformed Rome not yet come during the days of this prophecy, so feet of Iron and Clay not yet come, nor the toes.

Old Rome was there in power, not yet reformed. 

Feet of iron and clay are here now - but not quite reached the stage of the 10 toes when they are given power.

When did the Feet or iron and clay start?  I don't know.  It could be when the British Empire rose up as they controlled many territories throughout the world.  Is Rome hiding within the British Empire using that as their cover?  I don't have all the answers, just questions.

 

 

 

 

Thanks. Why are you looking in Revelation to try and interpret Daniel? 
 

Daniel must be interpreted on its own. Everything is in Daniel to interpret itself:

God has given us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms in Daniel and they cover the period of 606 BC to the end of time. Egypt and Assyria are not mentioned or a part of the 4 kingdoms. You really can not bring them in to Daniel. 
 

If they are found to be included in Revelation, that is fine, but they are already destroyed before Daniel begins.

 

If you exclude any reference to Revelation then can you see that the clay is found within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? 
 

Can you see the 4th kingdom is no different than the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms having 2 parts of a man’s body and each of those two parts having the same metal type?

The only exception is that God inserted a non-metallic element WITHIN the 4th kingdom to symbolize His people. 
 

Again, you are needing the image to have 5 kingdoms ONLY TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE 7 KINGDOMS IN REVELATION. 
 

The interpretation of Revelation will take care of itself. 
 

Please consider just Daniel. 
So, how about this:

1) The clay within the feet AND the 10 toes are found WITHIN pagan Rome BEFORE THE KINGDOM IS DIVIDED. 
 

2) Daniel is broken into two separate sections- There is the “Dream sequence section” (big picture), and then an “Interpretation sequence section” (details of things WITHIN the “Dream sequence section.”

3) In verses 31 to 33 Daniel reveals the 4 kingdoms in order. This is the “blueprint” or structure of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that God establishes in His image given to NEBUCHADNEZZAR. This image has nothing to do with Revelation. If these 4 kingdoms are found in Revelation that is fine, but in Daniel, there is only these 4.

4) The very next verse in 2:34 gives us the ONLY ACTION that takes place WITHIN the “Dream sequence section.” Here we learn he “stone” (Messiah AT HIS FIRST COMING DURING THE TIME OF PAGAN ROME) will strike the image on the FEET of the image. Here is the “TIMING” of the 4 kingdoms being revealed. This is the only way to interpret how many kingdoms there are AND when they are being discussed in Daniel. If 2:34 does not reveal when the 4th kingdom is symbolically “divided,” there is absolutely no way anyone can identify the actors or events in the subsequent verses OR when they occur. 

5) This is exactly what every interpreter has done. They ALL recognize the stone is the Messiah but they contend it (stone strikes the image) is an end time event, and that 2:34 happens at the same time as 2:35. But there is a 2000 year period between 2:34 and 2:35. Verse 2:34 is the Messiah coming DURING the time of pagan Rome when He symbolically breaks apart the 2 elements WITHIN THE FEET. While 2:35 represents His second coming at the end of time. Again, these “Dream sequence verses,” 2:31 to 2:35, represent the “big picture” of the final 4 kingdoms that will come upon the earth (not literally the last two kingdoms on earth, but those found WITHIN God’s story found in Daniel), AND the only 2 actions that He wants to disclose or reveal IN THIS STORY.

6) Of course, the remaining verses in chapter 2 will  provide the “details” or the specific prophecies that will take place WITHIN this 4 kingdom structure: and these are recorded in the “Interpretation sequence section” later provided by Gabriel to Daniel. 
 

7) Without 2:34 symbolizing the Messiah coming during pagan Rome, we could not identify the “timing” of these verses OR those in chapters 7,8,9 or 11. They would be thrown into the future and treated as “end time events.”

8) So, the Messiah arrives during the time of pagan Rome. He (cross) will break apart the CLAY from the iron WITHIN the feet (only). Meaning, the cross will separate the “pottery clay” (those Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah) from both the “ceramic clay” (those Jews who would be found to not accept Jesus as their Messiah) from the “iron” (pagan Rome kingdom) found WITHIN the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome (these are found in the “Interpretation sequence” verses of 2:37 - 43). 
 

9) This also reveals the timing of the “dividing” of the 4th kingdom. Pagan Rome that will continue for the next 400 years when in chapter 7 Daniel reveals it will be slain and its body is destroyed. But as a result of the cross, God will “set up” His spiritual kingdom on earth. This is the “divided” kingdom BUT ON EARTH it will take on the physical appearance of His church which we will find in chapter 7 is appropriated by the little horn.

10) Consequently, this also tells us that the 10 toes WERE IN EXISTENCE BEFORE 2:34 or BEFORE THE STONE STRIKES THE FEET OF THE IMAGE AND BREAKS IT APART FROM THE IRON GRIP OF PAGAN ROME. Thus, it cannot symbolize 10 kingdoms coming AFTER the demise of pagan Rome. They HAD to already be found at the end of the feet of PAGAN ROME.

So, please try and interpret Daniel without any consideration to Revelation. When Daniel is properly interpreted, God will send whatever symbols or interpretations found within Daniel to Revelation. 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2024 by Charlie744

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks. Why are you looking in Revelation to try and interpret Daniel? 
 

Daniel must be interpreted on its own. Everything is in Daniel to interpret itself:

 

Ha, just spotted this and found it interestingly funny, a blast from the past for me, in that the Church of Christ does not read Revelation as it goes through the Bible word by word in it's worship services  because it is dependent upon Daniel for understanding; and they cannot read both at the same time in a worship service format.

Really that was the answer I received from the CoC when I asked why are they skipping Revelation. It was at that time I exited  the church and moved on. Nice people but odd way  of thinking.

Anyway thanks for the flashback!