AdHoc Posted February 11 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,054 Content Per Day: 3.29 Reputation: 1,461 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: What are your thoughts on this? Satan was cast out of Heaven long before the earth and the universe were created. He was present to tempt Even via the serpent. Why wasn't he imprisoned from the beginning? Without his interference, man may never have sinned and we may have been born into grace instead of corruption. Thoughts? Both in the Old Testament and the New it is plainly said that God is not the author of chaos. All things created were created in good order. But for God to truly give a creature a free will, God undergoes the risk that this creature will make a decision against God's expressed will. What makes Him God is that he can allow this, allow the damage that comes and turn the evil to good. In Romans 8:28 God tells how He can turn evil to good in every case. I don't mean that the one who commits evil will escape. I mean that God can turn even death to His advantage - and the advantage of the dead one. So in verse 29 God tells to what good "ALL things" will turn - for a sinful man to be assured that he will be in the image of Jesus Christ by it. God is so sure of this ability that He can "predestinate" this long before the foundation of the world. It is not "predestination" to be saved. That would subvert the free will. It is to take the sum of a life's experiences and turn them into a process whereby a man or woman who loves God is transformed into the image of Christ. The grand type of this is Jacob. His story, in comparison to Abraham and Isaac, takes nearly half of Genesis. When Pharaoh asked him how old he was, he said; "my days have been few and evil" (Gen.47:9). But we also learn that Jacob blessed Pharaoh. And Hebrews 7:7 tells us that "the lesser is blessed by the greater". Jacob means "crook", or "supplanter". Through all his experiences, including never seeing his mother again and walking with a limp, the "Crook" went to much greater status that Pharaoh in all his wealth, knowledge and fame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi Posted February 11 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,798 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11 9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: What are your thoughts on this? Satan was cast out of Heaven long before the earth and the universe were created. He was present to tempt Even via the serpent. Why wasn't he imprisoned from the beginning? Without his interference, man may never have sinned and we may have been born into grace instead of corruption. Thoughts? When the Lord told Adam of the consequences of not obeying; the Lord basically gave Adam the freedom of choice. Man chose the devil, by which this world of old continues in today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted February 11 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,054 Content Per Day: 3.29 Reputation: 1,461 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11 2 hours ago, Vine Abider said: Therefore, even Satan is an instrument for God to fulfil His plan - bringing many sons to glory! Exactly! Nice! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted February 13 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,223 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 336 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted February 13 (edited) On 2/11/2024 at 3:38 PM, Vine Abider said: God's purpose for man is found in Genesis 1:26 - "let Us make man in our image and likeness and let them have dominion over [all living things]" which included "all the creatures moving along the ground." (NIV) Then after the temptation in chapter 3, God tells the enemy that the man will crush his head. So the purpose of man was to bear the image of God and have dominion over the earth for Him, which image & dominion is fulfilled in the new man Christ is heading up. Therefore, even Satan is an instrument for God to fulfil His plan - bringing many sons to glory! Good...as far as you went...but a bit short on claiming satan as an instrument of grace. The Bible does not glorify the devil as you have done here. It is called 'the opposer' for a reason, a 'murderer and thief' for a reason. What place does murder thievery and lies have in the act of Grace unto salvation? None whatsoever. It is THE LAW that convicts of SIN. (Romans 7) The devil is not a part of the redemptive process at all. The LAW is that aspect of grace given unto man that he may understand what SIN actually is and REPENT of it in his life. Therefore apart from the LAW no one can be saved. Let the reader bear in mind that the image of God was LOST in Genesis chapter 3. Never again is it referenced in scripture as a possession of mankind until Colossians 1:15 when we are told its identity - JESUS CHRIST. Those that have the image of God in Christ have immortality. Those that don't DIE. Move forward to Genesis 5. Between verse 2 & 3 the image of God was LOST to Adam's race. In verse 3 we read that Adam had a son IN HIS IMAGE....in Adam's image. Therefore the SIN that killed Adam was passed on to Adam's son....the image of Adam....the son that would also die....as has every son and daughter born since that time. It is interesting to note that almost everyone believes, erroneously, that all men and women have the image of God as part of their birthright...their construction. This is absolutely incorrect. For if men and women DID have the Image of God none would die. Oddly, most who believe mankind possesses the image of God cannot define their claims...cannot name it...because to do so is to name Jesus Christ as the sole source of immortality. We all know that all men and women die. We ought to know also that ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL (1 Tim 1:17). Therefore we arrive at the core of the blessed gospel of Jesus Christ - that God has chosen to impart of His immortality to those who surrender to Him by REPENTING of their SINs and wickedness. Everyone else dies....just like any cockroach or sick dog. Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 3:19) that's me, hollering from the choir loft...... (Isaiah 6:9-10) Edited February 13 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted February 14 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 205 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,481 Content Per Day: 6.16 Reputation: 2,329 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted February 14 On 2/11/2024 at 1:38 PM, Vine Abider said: God's purpose for man is found in Genesis 1:26 - "let Us make man in our image and likeness and let them have dominion over [all living things]" which included "all the creatures moving along the ground." (NIV) Then after the temptation in chapter 3, God tells the enemy that the man will crush his head. So the purpose of man was to bear the image of God and have dominion over the earth for Him, which image & dominion is fulfilled in the new man Christ is heading up. Therefore, even Satan is an instrument for God to fulfil His plan - bringing many sons to glory! On 2/13/2024 at 9:48 AM, choir loft said: Good...as far as you went...but a bit short on claiming satan as an instrument of grace. The Bible does not glorify the devil as you have done here. It is called 'the opposer' for a reason, a 'murderer and thief' for a reason. What place does murder thievery and lies have in the act of Grace unto salvation? None whatsoever. Where in my post did it glorify Satan? I was saying even the devil is used by God to fulfill His purpose - that's glory to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted February 15 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,223 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 336 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 18 hours ago, Vine Abider said: Where in my post did it glorify Satan? I was saying even the devil is used by God to fulfill His purpose - that's glory to God. Nowhere does scripture EXPLICITLY state or imply that the devil is part of the redemptive process.....of saving people from SIN. If the house of satan is divided against itself it cannot stand. (Jesus) Everywhere in the context of the Bible is stated the intention and work of the Ruach ha-Kodesh, Holy Spirit, to convict of SIN by the LAW of Moses and to glorify the Son of Man - Jesus Christ. The devil has no part in it whatsoever. It is a sad reflection of the post-modern church that its adherents devote more attention to the machinations of the devil (the opposer, the usurper, the thief, the murderer and the LIAR) than they do to the gentle ministrations of God's own spirit. Therein lies the core of deceit illogic and betrayal of the gospel of Christ in our churches today. Church types know not (or very little) of their own religion. It's a stain and a joke upon everyone who maintains membership and a clear evidence of its debauchery to everyone outside of it. Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “’Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; (Revelation 18:4) If the purpose and work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men and women is to destroy the works of satan, how then does the devil play a role in its own destruction? The answer, according to Jesus, is that it doesn't.....for the devil cannot and will not participate in the destruction of its own kingdom - by reason of the redemption of mankind. To claim that the devil is part of the redemptive process is to place undeserved attention upon something that's blatantly untrue. Attempts to do so GLORIFY SATAN. It's better to leave the post-modern church than to yield to its political correctness, its heresy, its hypocrisy, its hubris, its Gay Agenda, its humanism and its almost total rejection of Jesus Christ and His Holy Word (*). that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (Isaiah 6:9-10) (*) Several major denominations have already done so. Specifically they are; the Episcopal church, the Presbyterian church, the Roman Catholic church and the Methodist church. Non-denominational churches are guilty of misrepresenting and manipulating their members for purposes of ministerial aggrandizement. Few, very few, congregations are led by shepherds that are interested in spiritual edification (education and/or encouragement). Statistics, as well as statements and votes approved during national conventions, prove these assertions to be true. Edited February 15 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backontrack Posted February 15 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 139 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,213 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 185 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/10/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15 On 2/11/2024 at 7:49 AM, RV_Wizard said: What are your thoughts on this? Satan was cast out of Heaven long before the earth and the universe were created. He was present to tempt Even via the serpent. Why wasn't he imprisoned from the beginning? Without his interference, man may never have sinned and we may have been born into grace instead of corruption. Thoughts? God wanted a people who worship him with free will and Eve was aloud to choose and failed. When Jesus was asked by Satan worship me and I will give you all the Kingdome's of the world Mat 4: 8=9, Jesus answer Mat 4:10 you shall worship God and serve him alone. Jesus passed the test Eve and Adam failed thank You Jesus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted February 15 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,254 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,981 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15 Might I remind people that we are told we are to judge the angels at some time. God did not make us qualified to do that, as we didn't know the difference of good and bad (ever how you want to phrase that). God had Satan himself give us the qualification to be those judges. Only a just God would do something like that. It was planned that way from the very beginning. It is my conjecture that we will replace those angels lost to Satan's evil plans, and we will have been pre-tested to better know if we ourselves would rebel against Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amen Posted February 15 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2024 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15 On 2/11/2024 at 7:22 AM, FJK said: Why was Satan created in the first place? God didn’t create satan. He created Lucifer. But after rebellious against God he took all kind of names, the ancient snake, the dragon, satan. Revelation 12:7-10 7 Then a battle broke out in heaven: Michael[a] and his angels fought against the dragon, and he fought against them with his angels; 8 but the dragon was not victorious, and he and his angels could not maintain their position in heaven. 9 The great dragon was thrown out, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! Ezekiel 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. Ezekiel 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[1]Your settings and mountings[2] were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 15 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.65 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15 6 minutes ago, Amen said: God didn’t create satan. He created Lucifer. Are you concerned with the name used or with the created being involved here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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