The Great Harlot

[luigi]

3 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Is Mystery Babylon the great of Revelation 17 and  Revelation the same entity or Harlot ?.  I have read and heard  that some say they are the same and some say they are different ?.  What do you say or are your opinion ?.  Thanks

Babylon the Great of Revelation 17 is the same Harlot. I don't see anywhere differentiating the two. By the way, I also see Babylon the Great/Harlot described in Zechariah 5:7-8, which is the curse that goes over the face of the whole earth (Zechariah 5:3). And if you backtrack to Zechariah 4 where the two witnesses in Revelation 11 are; it then appears Babylon the Greats greater wickedness is occurring when the 42 months of the beast is in power.

Zechariah 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.

Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

[dad2]

10 hours ago, FJK said:

Sorry, but I can't see the parable of the fig tree, said to Jews in Israel, to mean that he was talking to gentiles and such thousands of years in the future.

Actually, I don't find any records of Jesus teaching to anyone but Jews and very little interaction at all with any gentiles.

So I remain unswayed in my questioning and my doubts about it.

He was talking about the end (as He was asked to address the issue and times). Also to people who would be alive at that end time. You can't hide that fact with a fig tree, or obscure interpretation of some meaning read into a tree. The point of the tree was simple. When we see buds or leaves, we know that the summer is near. When we see the signs START then we know that the end is also near.

 Probably the greatest sign is the abomination of desolation that will be set up in the holy place in the end. Right now it looks like the stage is being set and is set to a large extent for many of these things to happen. That is why I can't see a lot of time available for a whole new major kingdom to be set up still.

Edited March 30, 2024 by dad2

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, warrior12 said:

What is your definition of "alchemy".  Please paint a picture, so that it is fully understood. 

It's a Noun and means;

the medieval forerunner of chemistry, concerned with the transmutation of matter, in particular with attempts to convert base metals into gold or find a universal elixir.

(Credit to the Oxford Dictionary)

Two examples immediately come to mind.

1. Despite the Constitution, a dozen or so private banks own the Federal Reserve. They removed the dollar from the gold standard and can now print as much as they want. They then lend this "nothing" money to the US government who must pay interest on it. The interest comes from the peoples tax which in turn comes from their production. Production is real, so these banks turn nothing but a ledger entry into real value.

2. The Stock Market. Share "X" is valued at $5. On any normal day nothing happens, but the news paper prints an article about possible war. Share "X", based on this rumor, changes it value to $6. Nothing was added to the product or its manufacturer, but it gained 15% in value.

[The Hare]

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

The point was that it was claimed that another empire would arise. Looking at Israel and the degenerate nature of governments and schools and etc in the world today, it seems unlikely that another major power like Greece or Medo Persia or Babylon would rise before the Rapture and events to come in the tribulation. It is true we don't know when exactly.

We can say the signs Jesus mentioned have begun though, I think. Not all of them, obviously. People trying to be saviors of the planet, false Christs, rising persecution. Christians being hated of all men. (for opposing the gender confusion attack on children, abortion,sodom lifestyles, etc etc)     Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

Yes it says clearly that the events mentioned covered the time from Daniel till the very end. "Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

The events coming do not require you to do anything. Once the things Jesus told us about start to happen, the rest will follow in a fairly short time. In a broad sense, knowing the end of things from prophesy, we know the world will have a global government. We know commerce will center on an identifying mark embedded inside of people. We know Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies. We know believers will be killed worldwide. etc. It is obvious that the stage is being set today.

So, what would be the "holy city" in this context?

[The Hare]

3 hours ago, luigi said:

Babylon the Great of Revelation 17 is the same Harlot. I don't see anywhere differentiating the two. By the way, I also see Babylon the Great/Harlot described in Zechariah 5:7-8, which is the curse that goes over the face of the whole earth (Zechariah 5:3). And if you backtrack to Zechariah 4 where the two witnesses in Revelation 11 are; it then appears Babylon the Greats greater wickedness is occurring when the 42 months of the beast is in power.

Zechariah 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.

Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

Zechariah 5 mentions how the woman in the basket was despatched to the land of Shinar. Was it referring to an event which already happened? Shinar was where the Tower of Babel was built. 

[luigi]

24 minutes ago, The Hare said:

Zechariah 5 mentions how the woman in the basket was despatched to the land of Shinar. Was it referring to an event which already happened? Shinar was where the Tower of Babel was built. 

If you notice in the verse (Zechariah 5:8), the woman is sealed in the ephah, until the land of Shinar is prepared for her, to be set on her own base (Zechariah 5:11). It is therefore describing a future event. Then, combine this data with the previous chapter in Zechariah 4:11 where we see the two olive trees, who are also the two olive trees (the two witnesses) in Revelation 11:4, which occurs when the beasts 42 month reign is ensuing;-- the woman-wickedness in Zechariah 5 can then be realized being the great harlot, Babylon the Great.

Zechariah 5:8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.

Zechariah 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

[dad2]

2 hours ago, The Hare said:

So, what would be the "holy city" in this context?

Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

 

 

Looking at a commentary I saw this

 

"VI. And to anoint the Most Holy, קדש קדשים kodesh kodashim, "the Holy of holies." משיח mashach, to anoint, (from which comes משיח mashiach, the Messiah, the anointed one,) signifies in general, to consecrate or appoint to some special office. Here it means the consecration or appointment of our blessed Lord, the Holy One of Israel, to be the Prophet, Priest, and King of mankind."

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/acc/daniel-9.html#verse-24

 

In context, then, if this is correct, it would mean the time at the end when Jesus returns and is the ruler of the world. While He is king now of all who believe, He then will be king of all the earth.

The holy city in the verse it seems refers to the holy city of the Jews, Jerusalem, from which Jesus will rule the world.

Edited March 30, 2024 by dad2

[FJK]

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

He was talking about the end (as He was asked to address the issue and times). Also to people who would be alive at that end time. You can't hide that fact with a fig tree, or obscure interpretation of some meaning read into a tree. The point of the tree was simple. When we see buds or leaves, we know that the summer is near. When we see the signs START then we know that the end is also near.

 Probably the greatest sign is the abomination of desolation that will be set up in the holy place in the end. Right now it looks like the stage is being set and is set to a large extent for many of these things to happen. That is why I can't see a lot of time available for a whole new major kingdom to be set up still.

So you still contend he wasn't talking to Jews, but I find no evidence that he wasn't.

Are there no Jews today in your view of things?  I contend that he was talking to Jews alone, he never ministered to the Gentiles and never mentioned them as being the ones who would be hated of all men in the end.

I just can't accept your view as truth here, Jesus was a Jew who came for the Jews directed his teachings to them in a manner that would be understood by them, not to other peoples.

In fact, the bible likens other people to dogs at a table eating scraps

 Mat 15:24-28  "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.”  And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.”  Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith!  Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly."

[Jedi4Yahweh]

On 3/28/2024 at 2:45 PM, FJK said:

Is this leading toward America being Babylon the Great?

I don't discount the possibility, but I don't discount the possibility that Babylon the Great is something yet to come after America falls or that America is just a part of.

Rev 18 says Mystery Babylon is described as a 'great' merchant CITY not a nation.  MB  has seaports and does business with the entire world.  The word 'great city' refers to a 'mega city' in Greek.  NYC is the world's largest mega city and is the wealthiest merchant city in the world.  NYC has been dubbed the "Capital of the World" due to its trade alliances and diplomacy with the world. 

Mystery Babylon is said to reign over the kings of the earth and did you know NYC is the home of United Nations Head Quarters which reigns over the kings of the earth.  

Mystery Babylon is described as a proud Queen (Statue of Liberty) who sits upon many waters (nationalities), and says I will never see sorrow.  NYC is the melting pot of the world and the world's largest mix of nationalities and ethnicities more than any other city of the world. 

The bible says that in MB are found those who murdered the prophets and saints.  Did you know there are more Jewish people living in NYC than any other city of the world to include Jerusalem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_city.

[FJK]

16 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Rev 18 says Mystery Babylon is described as a 'great' merchant CITY not a nation.  MB  has seaports and does business with the entire world.  The word 'great city' refers to a 'mega city' in Greek.  NYC is the world's largest mega city and is the wealthiest merchant city in the world.  NYC has been dubbed the "Capital of the World" due to its trade alliances and diplomacy with the world. 

Mystery Babylon is said to reign over the kings of the earth and did you know NYC is the home of United Nations Head Quarters which reigns over the kings of the earth.  

Mystery Babylon is described as a proud Queen (Statue of Liberty) who sits upon many waters (nationalities), and says I will never see sorrow.  NYC is the melting pot of the world and the world's largest mix of nationalities and ethnicities more than any other city of the world. 

The bible says that in MB are found those who murdered the prophets and saints.  Did you know there are more Jewish people living in NYC than any other city of the world to include Jerusalem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_city.

I've considered the same things quite a bit, but lately I've been tempering them with the knowledge that there were about 200 million in the entire world at that time and written for understanding by a population of people that was probably substantially smaller the the total world population of the time.

Today there are somewhere around 8 billion people in the world, and even a large city by itself can hold only a small percent of the overall population of a nation (a country today, not a people as then) but. still, the entire nation can be completely entwined with the functioning of that city so I have to consider that a major city alone cannot be separated from the country it is in and if one falls the other does as well.

This makes me wonder at what that particular Babylon of the end times will actually be to have the effect on the world that its fall will have.

It may be a city in the Middle East that is yet to come into being instead of one that is already established for all I know.