Before the "pre, mid post," what is your support scriptural for the SEVEN YEARS of tribulation?

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Passover, which began in Egypt, was foundation of the old covenant which was further typified expounded upon through other lawful ordinances which served as prophetic actions performed by the priest pointing to the Lamb of God, “slain from the foundation of the world.”

It is my persuasion that Passover is no longer to be “kept” as it was under the law (being now dead and replaced by the New Covenant), but now to be regularly remembered in its fulfillment via the death and resurrection of Christ in that He has purchased for Himself a Bride. 

To say "a perfectly good reason for animal sacrifices in the Millennium" is that "our Lord promises to re-instate the Passover in the Kingdom" to me is a far stretch from what Jesus is indeed saying and alluding to. The next celebration at the coming of Christ is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb - 

Rev 19:5 - And a voice came out of the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants, and you that fear Him, both small and great."
 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thundering, saying, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigns."
 7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."
 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
 9 And He said unto me, "Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." And He said unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."

And what was the beginning of Jesus ministry, and the first miracle? The making of wine for His consumption at the marriage in Cana. It's really all about the wedding... 

John 2:2  - And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.  3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

(There is much prophetic significance in the Jesus' attending the marriage there and the miracle of  changing the water into wine. It really is all about the wedding...)

This will be the fulfilment of Luke 22:18, and I believe, as the first born of the Egyptians were slain, the slaughter of the wicked at His coming will in part be prophetically fulfilled in the verses following the above listed below- 

Rev 19:17 - And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
 18 That you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

In the Millennium it will be clear and common knowledge fulfilled Passover's significance, for it is the center, and pivotal point of all eternity, that Jesus Christ willingly died for humanities sins. That reality, forever, will be the focus, as it was from the foundation of the world. 

Rev 5:9 - And they sung a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for You were slain, and has redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.  13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, "Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

 

5 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

So, suddenly, in the blink of the eye, that which God abolished with its destruction, the temple, the Ceremonial and Levitical laws, with all their weakness to remove sin, is reinstated by Jesus Christ?

I don't think so....

Even the Pharisees in all their hypocrisy had audience with Jesus, all men did, even the Samaritans and the Romans.

Why then is it that "The infidel must be cleansed by animal sacrifice before he has audience with Jesus." Furthermore, if they don't yield to the commandments of the Lord they cannot enter into the city...

Rev 22:13 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.  14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and makes a lie.

 

The law was fulfilled in Christ. 

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We must not confused the  Ceremonial and Levitical laws with the laws of sin and faith, and the morality therein which still remains.

Thank you for your replies. I have read and noted them. I think we are too far apart to  profit from dialogue. Jesus said what He said in Luke 22. There was no talk of a marriage feast and of killing His enemies. The Passover, commemorating death, has its place, but not alongside a marriage feast - a time of joy. The time of marriage is not the time for killing.

The New Covenant is made solely with Israel (Jer.31:31-33). It will be made with them when they are one nations again. It will be a Covenant of Law. The Lord assures us that it, the Law, is still valid "till heaven and earth pass.

The wedding of John 2 has nothing in common with Revelation 19. The wedding of Canaan was a Jewish wedding with Jesus as guest, not Bridegroom. The Bride is not mentioned. The pots were Jewish ceremonial pots and they were empty. "The Third Day" alludes to Hosea 6:2 for it is not "after three days" as in resurrection, but "THE third day" - indicating that two days were complete. The sign took place in Cana of Galilee - a Jewish piece of Land. The other two allusions to the wedding feast of the Lamb, Matthew 22 and 25 are attached to the Kingdom of Heaven. John 2 not. With so many indicators that the restoration of Israel was being foretold, I find it hard to see how you connect it with Revelation 19.

Your appreciation of the Law as weak is not mine. According to Romans 7 it was God-given, spiritual, good and able to give life. It was ineffective through the weakness of men (Rom.8:3) weakness of the human flesh.

Your argument of Jesus being entertained of the Pharisees without consequences denies the fact that Jesus was "veiled" by His flesh. It also denies a progression where John fell as dead in Revelation 1, men hiding from His Face in Revelation 6 the Beast is destroyed by that which proceeds out of His mouth, Gog destroyed by His face and heaven and earth fleeing from His face.

I respect your views but I'm sure you'll agree that we are far apart.

Go well, especially for your treatment.

[BlindSeeker]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Go well, especially for your treatment.

Thank you very, very much.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your replies. I have read and noted them. I think we are too far apart to  profit from dialogue. Jesus said what He said in Luke 22.

I feel the ability to profit in any dialogue comes always from honest reasoning. One man does one thing as unto the Lord, another refrains from the same as unto the Lord, and yet both are accepted by Him for their honor towards Him. Yet it is only such dialogue alone that can refine each person’s understanding and adjust it more pointedly at the truth. First, by one examining the surety of their position and understanding of the text to which they maintain a conviction, secondly, through a purposeful attempt to understand the grounds for the other’s holding to their conviction.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There was no talk of a marriage feast and of killing His enemies.

Agreed, yet such is also why for a proper understanding of the whole why no prophetic text should be (privately) interpreted apart from the rest, especially when we have the whole of prophecy to rightly divide and connect.  There is an end to prophecy, and that is the end to which God desires to bring His people. 

Isaiah 28:9 - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

It is one thing to get knowledge, the “who” and “what” and “where” of things, and another to have wisdom for the “how” and “when” application thereof, but without a clear understanding of the “why” the rest puffs up and feeds self-confidence. It is the “why” that preserves humility in the saint of God.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Passover, commemorating death, has its place, but not alongside a marriage feast - a time of joy. 

All things have their place, and yet all things are connected. Remember, and prayerfully consider the prophetic significance, that he first thing God did for man was create woman from man, and that to be the glory of man. And this was done even before sin soiled the whole of creation and brought death into the world. What God did for man was only so that we might understand the heart of God concerning man, and our ultimate purpose.

1 Cor. 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph 5:23  -For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish… 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Titus 2:10  - … that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

(A) The New Covenant is made solely with Israel (Jer.31:31-33). It will be made with them when they are one nation again. It will be a Covenant of Law. (B) The Lord assures us that it, the Law, is still valid "till heaven and earth pass.

Regarding (A), The Old Covenant which was indeed given to Abraham and his descendants was still inclusive to “whosever” recognized the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and by faith honored Him through their obedience to the Law while it pertained to life. But the weakness and unprofitability of the Law was that even though one could use it to maintain their life with God and grow in His grace and mercies as believers, it could not give life. Rather, the very strength of sin was the Law, for there was no 11^th Commandment given that said, “If you have broken any of the first 10 Commandments, then DO THIS and You shall live.”

Yet, within the Ceremonial Law (sacrifices and oblations), performed under the guidance of the Levitical Law (ministerial administration of the prior), as well as the tabernacle prophetic design, was all given us in what commonly called The Mosaic Law. All these were tutorial and prophetic, types and shadows but not true substance, merely pointing to Jesus Christ.

Regarding (B), While Moses had to write that within the Mosaic Law,  it was God who wrote the Moral Law in stone with His own finger, or what James calls the “Royal Law,” and it is that law that the Holy Spirits uses to perfect holiness in the life of the believer as they faithfully serve God, trusting and obeying His word through the enabling of the Spirit. That is the law which will never pass away “till heaven and earth pass.” And that not until the very end of the millennium after Satan has been released once more to deceive the nations. But that law will always be required of all men yet mortal, for God, under the New Covenant has commanded all men to repent.

So, whether OT or NT, there is “One Law” imposed upon all men. Are there different applications, yes. Some for Jews, and some for Gentiles. Some fore the Priest and leadership, and some for the laymen. Some for the males and some for the females, some for the old and some for the young. Likewise, under there new there are diversity of gifts and calling according to God’s will and everyone ability.

Ex 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.

 Le 24:22 You shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for those of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Nu 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the Passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the Passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: you shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

 Nu 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourns with you.

 Nu 15:29 You shall have one law for him that sins through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourns among them.

As well as  - 

Gal 3:26 - For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 2:11 - Wherefore remember, that in time past you were Gentiles in the flesh and were called the Uncircumcision by those which are called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.12 And at that time you were without Christ and aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and were strangers from the COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world:  13 But now in Christ Jesus, though you were at that time far off, you have been brought nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For He is our peace [unifier], who has made both [Gentile and Jew] into one, having removed the middle wall of partition which was between us; 15 And abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of both one new man, so making peace. 16 That He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity [even the law of commandments contained in ordinances] therein.

 

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

(A) The wedding of John 2 has nothing in common with Revelation 19. The wedding of Canaan was a Jewish wedding with Jesus as guest, not Bridegroom. The Bride is not mentioned. (B) The pots were Jewish ceremonial pots and they were empty. 

First (A), “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee where He manifested forth His glory, and His disciples believed on Him.  And again, I must repeat that the first thing God did for man was create woman from man that they might become one, or one flesh. Therefore, it is profoundly significant in my eyes that Jesus begins the manifestation of His glory at a wedding.

Second (B), the “Jewish ceremonial pots” were not empty, they simply were no longer full when Jesus and His disciples arrived. But the reason they were there was because this water was there because of the “traditions of the Jews,” for their religious purification. That is because the Jews had taken a valid prophetic truth and turned it into a vain worthless tradition that served only to blind them and others to the truth and to give them a false sense of righteousness. 

It was their erroneous opinion that nothing was truly cleansed unless it had been washed in “living water,” which is simply that the water needed to be in motion, such as a angel stirring the pool of Bethesda, a moving river or spring head, or simply the pouring out of water over their hands as they washed, thus allowing the impurities to be washed away. To bathe in a basin would in their minds be washing hands in stagnant water which would continue to hold the impurities, leaving you washing in dirty water. 

2 Kings 3:11b . . . Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.

Consider also the prophetic action of the following ceremonial offering as well–

Leviticus 14:5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: 6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: 7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.

Do you not see prophetic action, one bird being washed in living water mixed with the blood of another, and then being set free alive? Now these were true prophetic things which God ordained to be kept, yet they all symbolized aspects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but never intended by God to become the object of faith or confidence of men.

Consider the account in Mark –

Mark 7:2 - And when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashed, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold to such as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why don’t Your walk disciples according to the tradition of the elders, and eat bread with unwashed hands?”

Again, the Pharisees were not simply speaking of washing for the sake of physical cleanliness, they did these things in order to declare their own spiritual pureness. By it, their confidence drifted far from what God originally intended, so that they were now actually accusing Jesus and His disciples of sin for they had eating “with unwashed hands.”

Listen to Jesus’ reply to them –

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well did Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honored Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do. 9 And He said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

So, Jesus at Cana literally begins His ministry openly at the celebration of the greatest prophetic sacrament between a man and a woman, a wedding feast in Cana. For through marriage, husbands and wives are given what was denied to the angels, the privilege and responsibility to adorn the Gospel of God our Savor. For marriage is a holy covenant and union design to represent God’s ultimate plan for those who love Him. As husbands take unto themselves their own wives to love, provide for and to protect as weaker vessels, they reflect to the world how Christ so loved His church.

 Upon their arrival at the wedding Jesus asked for wine and was told by His mother that there was none. Mary then turns and gives directions to the servants, “Whatsoever He says, do.” It is then that Jesus has them fill the ceremonial water pots back up to their brims, and then turns the water unto wine. 

Now here is the important part to recognize, the consequence of Jesus doing this is that there is now no ceremonial water at the wedding whereby other late arrivers could now wash their hands to partake of the festivities of the wedding. Jesus literally took this Pharisaic vain tradition of purification and brought it to an abrupt prophetic end.

Don’t you see the fabulous prophetic imagery? A wedding, union with Christ, wine, our atonement, a celebration, the marriage supper of the Lamb, all being put forth gloriously at the beginning of Jesus’ miracles and ministry. However, what is also sadly prophetic was the action at Christ’s crucifixion where they took and gave unto Him vinegar on the cross.

This, however, wasn’t just vinegar, like vinegar off the store shelf. This was soured wine which was permitted to turn into vinegar and was past the stage of being “good wine” such as was served at the wedding of Cana. This was neglected and spoiled wine. 

Note the description given in Numbers-

Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

The giving to Jesus on the cross the sour wine vinegar served as a witness against those who demanded His crucifixion, showing they had rejected His Gospel of the Kingdom simply because it threaten their own. Rejecting His gift of given at the beginning of His miracles and the manifestation of His glory through His prophetic action of turning their vain ceremonial water of purification into wine, they gave it back to Him, soured by their rejection of both Him and His words, choosing rather to cling to their own vain traditions. 

So, yes, the moral law in all it's perfection will continue until the present earth and all those born therein who have rejected Jesus Christ, with the present heaven tainted by the sins of the fallen angelic host, they too having received their judgment and all have passed away. After that, in the new, neither the law, or faith, or hope will be necessary no longer.

Do I have it all correct, lol, absolutely not. But I do know the next truly 2 great events in the heart of the Lord to occur next is, first, the eternal receiving of His own immortalized, glorified people, and second, the destruction and eternal removal of the damned. These two events will be so close together they can barely be called separate. Distinctly different? Yes, yet still like the simultaneous moving of one hand followed by the moving of the other.

Deut. 28:63  - And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to naught.

 

Blessings to you, and as you say, "Go well."

Edited May 16, 2024 by BlindSeeker

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, BlindSeeker said:

Thank you very, very much.

I feel the ability to profit in any dialogue comes always from honest reasoning. One man does one thing as unto the Lord, another refrains from the same as unto the Lord, and yet both are accepted by Him for their honor towards Him. Yet it is only such dialogue alone that can refine each person’s understanding and adjust it more pointedly at the truth. First, by one examining the surety of their position and understanding of the text to which they maintain a conviction, secondly, through a purposeful attempt to understand the grounds for the other’s holding to their conviction.

Agreed, yet such is also why for a proper understanding of the whole why no prophetic text should be (privately) interpreted apart from the rest, especially when we have the whole of prophecy to rightly divide and connect.  There is an end to prophecy, and that is the end to which God desires to bring His people. 

Isaiah 28:9 - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

It is one thing to get knowledge, the “who” and “what” and “where” of things, and another to have wisdom for the “how” and “when” application thereof, but without a clear understanding of the “why” the rest puffs up and feeds self-confidence. It is the “why” that preserves humility in the saint of God.

All things have their place, and yet all things are connected. Remember, and prayerfully consider the prophetic significance, that he first thing God did for man was create woman from man, and that to be the glory of man. And this was done even before sin soiled the whole of creation and brought death into the world. What God did for man was only so that we might understand the heart of God concerning man, and our ultimate purpose.

1 Cor. 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph 5:23  -For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish… 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Titus 2:10  - … that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

Regarding (A), The Old Covenant which was indeed given to Abraham and his descendants was still inclusive to “whosever” recognized the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and by faith honored Him through their obedience to the Law while it pertained to life. But the weakness and unprofitability of the Law was that even though one could use it to maintain their life with God and grow in His grace and mercies as believers, it could not give life. Rather, the very strength of sin was the Law, for there was no 11^th Commandment given that said, “If you have broken any of the first 10 Commandments, then DO THIS and You shall live.”

Yet, within the Ceremonial Law (sacrifices and oblations), performed under the guidance of the Levitical Law (ministerial administration of the prior), as well as the tabernacle prophetic design, was all given us in what commonly called The Mosaic Law. All these were tutorial and prophetic, types and shadows but not true substance, merely pointing to Jesus Christ.

Regarding (B), While Moses had to write that within the Mosaic Law,  it was God who wrote the Moral Law in stone with His own finger, or what James calls the “Royal Law,” and it is that law that the Holy Spirits uses to perfect holiness in the life of the believer as they faithfully serve God, trusting and obeying His word through the enabling of the Spirit. That is the law which will never pass away “till heaven and earth pass.” And that not until the very end of the millennium after Satan has been released once more to deceive the nations. But that law will always be required of all men yet mortal, for God, under the New Covenant has commanded all men to repent.

So, whether OT or NT, there is “One Law” imposed upon all men. Are there different applications, yes. Some for Jews, and some for Gentiles. Some fore the Priest and leadership, and some for the laymen. Some for the males and some for the females, some for the old and some for the young. Likewise, under there new there are diversity of gifts and calling according to God’s will and everyone ability.

Ex 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.

 Le 24:22 You shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for those of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Nu 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the Passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the Passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: you shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

 Nu 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourns with you.

 Nu 15:29 You shall have one law for him that sins through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourns among them.

As well as  - 

Gal 3:26 - For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 2:11 - Wherefore remember, that in time past you were Gentiles in the flesh and were called the Uncircumcision by those which are called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.12 And at that time you were without Christ and aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and were strangers from the COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world:  13 But now in Christ Jesus, though you were at that time far off, you have been brought nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For He is our peace [unifier], who has made both [Gentile and Jew] into one, having removed the middle wall of partition which was between us; 15 And abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of both one new man, so making peace. 16 That He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity [even the law of commandments contained in ordinances] therein.

 

First (A), “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee where He manifested forth His glory, and His disciples believed on Him.  And again, I must repeat that the first thing God did for man was create woman from man that they might become one, or one flesh. Therefore, it is profoundly significant in my eyes that Jesus begins the manifestation of His glory at a wedding.

Second (B), the “Jewish ceremonial pots” were not empty, they simply were no longer full when Jesus and His disciples arrived. But the reason they were there was because this water was there because of the “traditions of the Jews,” for their religious purification. That is because the Jews had taken a valid prophetic truth and turned it into a vain worthless tradition that served only to blind them and others to the truth and to give them a false sense of righteousness. 

It was their erroneous opinion that nothing was truly cleansed unless it had been washed in “living water,” which is simply that the water needed to be in motion, such as a angel stirring the pool of Bethesda, a moving river or spring head, or simply the pouring out of water over their hands as they washed, thus allowing the impurities to be washed away. To bathe in a basin would in their minds be washing hands in stagnant water which would continue to hold the impurities, leaving you washing in dirty water. 

2 Kings 3:11b . . . Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.

Consider also the prophetic action of the following ceremonial offering as well–

Leviticus 14:5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: 6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: 7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.

Do you not see prophetic action, one bird being washed in living water mixed with the blood of another, and then being set free alive? Now these were true prophetic things which God ordained to be kept, yet they all symbolized aspects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but never intended by God to become the object of faith or confidence of men.

Consider the account in Mark –

Mark 7:2 - And when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashed, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold to such as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why don’t Your walk disciples according to the tradition of the elders, and eat bread with unwashed hands?”

Again, the Pharisees were not simply speaking of washing for the sake of physical cleanliness, they did these things in order to declare their own spiritual pureness. By it, their confidence drifted far from what God originally intended, so that they were now actually accusing Jesus and His disciples of sin for they had eating “with unwashed hands.”

Listen to Jesus’ reply to them –

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well did Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honored Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do. 9 And He said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

So, Jesus at Cana literally begins His ministry openly at the celebration of the greatest prophetic sacrament between a man and a woman, a wedding feast in Cana. For through marriage, husbands and wives are given what was denied to the angels, the privilege and responsibility to adorn the Gospel of God our Savor. For marriage is a holy covenant and union design to represent God’s ultimate plan for those who love Him. As husbands take unto themselves their own wives to love, provide for and to protect as weaker vessels, they reflect to the world how Christ so loved His church.

 Upon their arrival at the wedding Jesus asked for wine and was told by His mother that there was none. Mary then turns and gives directions to the servants, “Whatsoever He says, do.” It is then that Jesus has them fill the ceremonial water pots back up to their brims, and then turns the water unto wine. 

Now here is the important part to recognize, the consequence of Jesus doing this is that there is now no ceremonial water at the wedding whereby other late arrivers could now wash their hands to partake of the festivities of the wedding. Jesus literally took this Pharisaic vain tradition of purification and brought it to an abrupt prophetic end.

Don’t you see the fabulous prophetic imagery? A wedding, union with Christ, wine, our atonement, a celebration, the marriage supper of the Lamb, all being put forth gloriously at the beginning of Jesus’ miracles and ministry. However, what is also sadly prophetic was the action at Christ’s crucifixion where they took and gave unto Him vinegar on the cross.

This, however, wasn’t just vinegar, like vinegar off the store shelf. This was soured wine which was permitted to turn into vinegar and was past the stage of being “good wine” such as was served at the wedding of Cana. This was neglected and spoiled wine. 

Note the description given in Numbers-

Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

The giving to Jesus on the cross the sour wine vinegar served as a witness against those who demanded His crucifixion, showing they had rejected His Gospel of the Kingdom simply because it threaten their own. Rejecting His gift of given at the beginning of His miracles and the manifestation of His glory through His prophetic action of turning their vain ceremonial water of purification into wine, they gave it back to Him, soured by their rejection of both Him and His words, choosing rather to cling to their own vain traditions. 

So, yes, the moral law in all it's perfection will continue until the present earth and all those born therein who have rejected Jesus Christ, with the present heaven tainted by the sins of the fallen angelic host, they too having received their judgment and all have passed away. After that, in the new, neither the law, or faith, or hope will be necessary no longer.

Do I have it all correct, lol, absolutely not. But I do know the next truly 2 great events in the heart of the Lord to occur next is, first, the eternal receiving of His own immortalized, glorified people, and second, the destruction and eternal removal of the damned. These two events will be so close together they can barely be called separate. Distinctly different? Yes, yet still like the simultaneous moving of one hand followed by the moving of the other.

Deut. 28:63  - And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to naught.

 

Blessings to you, and as you say, "Go well."

Your reply is read and noted. It is also noted how much effort you put in. The subject has drifted from the original title, but I feel that the interested reader would come away with something to think about. I don't think more discussion will bring anything.

May the Lord be a comfort in the before-standing medical treatment. Life is merciless, but the end is a transformed character that brings glory to the Lord.

[BlindSeeker]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your reply is read and noted. It is also noted how much effort you put in. The subject has drifted from the original title, but I feel that the interested reader would come away with something to think about. I don't think more discussion will bring anything.

May the Lord be a comfort in the before-standing medical treatment. Life is merciless, but the end is a transformed character that brings glory to the Lord.

Thank AdHoc, you've been very gracious and it is truly appreciated.

Yes, threads often to have various branches of thoughts and thus also many roots to support them. I was hoping to hear from more  with scriptural support, but it is what it is.

Regardless of all the ecological theories out there, our Lord is sure to come. Regardless the abounding wickedness, proclamations of peace and safety, and persecution of the saints, "Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus."

Stay blessable my friend, on fire, and unburnable.
 

Edited May 16, 2024 by BlindSeeker

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Thank AdHoc, you've been very gracious and it is truly appreciated.

Yes, threads often to have various branches of thoughts and thus also many roots to support them. I was hoping to hear from more  with scriptural support, but it is what it is.

Regardless of all the ecological theories out there, our Lord is sure to come. Regardless the abounding wickedness, proclamations of peace and safety, and persecution of the saints, "Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus."

Stay blessable my friend, on fire, and unburnable.
 

I think you addressed a valid point and no one was able to prove something that isn't there. Too much of today's beliefs are gained, not from the Bible, but from Hal Lindsay-type publications. I'm sure that the Lord used him and like brothers to get to a layer of saints who haven't had the time, energy or talent to study the Word at length. Have you noted that on this, and other Forums that when it comes to threads with an opinion, it can run to 15 pages of postings. But when the Word decides the matter unequivocally, the battle is over quite quickly.

I am saddened by the state of teaching in many Assemblies, but I've also noticed that many saints don't like their knowledge-cage rattled by exegesis that is precise and which follows a logical argument. After all, God gave us language to transmit ideas, but if we are sloppy, we never get the message intended (like my blunder a few postings ago). Nobody knew what was meant - even I. (Serves me right for taking on such a discourse at 2 a.m.).

Anyway, gotta go now (wife is having her share of doctor's visits for slipped discs).

I'm sure we'll cross roads again. Take care and take it easy in those desperate hours during that awful treatment.

[BlindSeeker]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think you addressed a valid point and no one was able to prove something that isn't there. Too much of today's beliefs are gained, not from the Bible, but from Hal Lindsay-type publications. I'm sure that the Lord used him and like brothers to get to a layer of saints who haven't had the time, energy or talent to study the Word at length.

Over my decades of being a believer I have heard many perspectives taught dogmatically, which as a newbie I accepted, but after becoming more studious myself in quest of understanding, I would look at the support-texts people used to teach me and just couldn’t see it anymore. So, I would ask for more supporting verses, thinking maybe I was not illuminated enough to see what they were seeing.

I eventually realized that too many “scholars” were simply taught to read the scriptures according to the candle of the theology they were taught under. 
These are days, truly, where many professing believers cannot endure sound doctrine because of their embedded theological strongholds. Such strongholds are in the church, and they’re in the world politically, because people have embraced lies and cannot discern the truth. Like Jesus said, “Hearing, they hear not. Seeing, they see not.” 

The commonality with such “believers” is a lack of a pure hunger and thirst for righteousness, yet an abounding appetite for knowledge which renders them susceptible to religious fables, doctrines of men, or every “new revelation.” We all come from a variety of Christian ideology, and like spokes of a wheel, far apart on the rim when young, but are nearer and more connected at the center as we mature.  Two things we need more of, humility and patience, if we are ever going to obtain our unity at the Polestar of all Truth and come to that “one heart and one mind.”
 

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 Have you noted that on this, and other Forums that when it comes to threads with an opinion, it can run to 15 pages of postings. But when the Word decides the matter unequivocally, the battle is over quite quickly.

I am saddened by the state of teaching in many Assemblies, but I've also noticed that many saints don't like their knowledge-cage rattled by exegesis that is precise and which follows a logical argument. After all, God gave us language to transmit ideas, but if we are sloppy, we never get the message intended...

Yes, I have.

I was on Worthy when it first started decades ago, before George moved to Israel, I think. The number of posters was fewer, yet for the most part were more gracious, though not without the occasional emotional flare up at times. It has surely changed over the years…

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

(like my blunder a few postings ago). Nobody knew what was meant - even I. (Serves me right for taking on such a discourse at 2 a.m.).

LOL, I read things the next day myself and realized I misunderstood what I commented to, or couldn’t figure out what I was trying to say. Truly, we need to endeavor to understand before we respond, and that slowly…

 

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Anyway, gotta go now (wife is having her share of doctor's visits for slipped discs).

I'm sure we'll cross roads again. Take care and take it easy in those desperate hours during that awful treatment.

Back issues can truly be disabling. My mother had issues and pain so bad that she would just cry. It was heart breaking. But God was gracious with His mercies, and she found some relief after surgery.  May the Lord be so abundantly gracious to your wife as well.

Stay blessable, on fire, and unburnable.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 5/15/2024 at 8:46 AM, BlindSeeker said:

With each day equaling a year, 434 + 49 + 483 years.

But a day does not equal a year, that is something one has to infer into the text.

Given the context, that gives us the captivities translation, as shown in my previous posts, we get seven captivities and 62 weeks.  A captivity is 70 years, therefore we need not infer our own understanding when given what I strongly believe is the correct translation.

 

The context; Daniel 9:1-2  Daniel 1:21 2 Chronicles 36, shows that the correct translation is captivities. 

 

Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people.....

4,900 total years worth of captivity.

Otherwise how do you account for the clear thousands of years that have past?
You have to infer meaning into the text that is not clearly there,
a day is not a year.

The captivities translation is contextually sound and does not force any inferences.

[BlindSeeker]

On 5/29/2024 at 6:23 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

But a day does not equal a year, that is something one has to infer into the text.

(First, sorry for the delayed reply. For some reason I am no longer receiving any notifications.)

Certainly, if this was the only place in scripture where the “inference” has been made, then you may well have a point. But it isn’t.

Ezekiel 4:6 - “And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.”

Numbers 14:34 - According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection.

2 Peter 3:8 - But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Hosea 6:1 - Come, let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 After two days [2000 years] He will revive us [Israel, having been re-established as a nation is grafted back into the Vine having believed the 2 witnesses / “the receiving of them being life from the dead”]; On the third day [millennial reign] He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.

 

On 5/29/2024 at 6:23 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Given the context, that gives us the captivities translation, as shown in my previous posts, we get seven captivities and 62 weeks.  A captivity is 70 years, therefore we need not infer our own understanding when given what I strongly believe is the correct translation.

The context; Daniel 9:1-2  Daniel 1:21 2 Chronicles 36, shows that the correct translation is captivities. 

 

Context and history are two separate things, and yes, history is within the context of the Book of Daniel. But let’s stick to the verse in question for its context.

Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks <shabuwa`> are determined for your people and for your holy city…

First, Nowhere in scripture has shabuwa` been interpreted any other way than “week/weeks.”

Second, The context is not dealing with history, but the future fulfillment of Messiah’s coming to “your [Daniel] people [the Jews]” and to “your holy city [Jerusalem.]” The verse is clearly prophetic, and therefore the context pertains to the future.

Now, I know that you “strongly believe” yours to be “the correct translation,” but I don’t.
 

On 5/29/2024 at 6:23 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Otherwise how do you account for the clear thousands of years that have past?
You have to infer meaning into the text that is not clearly there,
a day is not a year.

Simply put, what I believe is that Jesus came after the 483 years and He confirmed the covenant, even “the sure mercies of David,” that all who received God’s Messiah and His atonement would be raised up at the las day. He repeatedly confirmed this throughout His preaching, as well as confirmed His power to do it by raising the dead during His ministry, and, after 3 ½ years, He “fulfilled” the prophetic intent of the Law, bringing it to its conclusion by His death.

Therefore, by His sacrifice He caused the validity of the ceremonial sacrifices to cease, and consequently they were now no longer lawful in the eyes of God since the sole purpose of them was to point the Lamb of God, the only acceptable and effective Sacrifice for sins. Here, Jesus caused “the sacrifice and oblations to cease”. The Ceremonial Law was now “dead.

Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Jesus continued to confirm the covenant by His own resurrection, as well as the graves of the many of the saints being likewise open after His resurrection. But was still rejected by the Jews, who therefore continued in their dead works of ceremonial sacrifices which was nothing more than “crucifying Christ afresh,” And therefore their religious activities in the eyes of became nothing more than an “overspreading of abominations,” whereby God destroyed the temple and the genealogy records of the Levites, making it impossible for the Jews to lawfully perform the Mosaic / Levitical covenant.

But after Jesus’s death and resurrection (and possibly up to the time of His ascension), the judgment spoken against the Jews and Israel came to past, and “the natural branch” was broken off. This stopped the clock so to say, since the prophecy pertains to the Jews and Israel.

I feel the ingrafting of them back in will be the result of the two witness which, under the Spirit of Christ, again confirm the covenant preaching for 3 ½ years, and likewise confirming it with their own bodily resurrection before the eyes of all.

On 5/29/2024 at 6:23 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The captivities translation is contextually sound and does not force any inferences.

I disagree yet respect your right to hold to that opinion.

[The Light]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:46 PM, BlindSeeker said:

Just for the record, I believe “the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” is Titus Caesar, Vespasian’s son who completed the siege on Jerusalem resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d.

 

Just for the record................

What covenant with many did Titus Caesar confirm?

[BlindSeeker]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Just for the record................

What covenant with many did Titus Caesar confirm?

Titus is not the one confirming the covenant, and note, it is a clearly stated to be a confirmation of the covenant, and not the establishing or breaking of one. Titus, as was Cyrus, was likewise used of God as an instrument of judgment and destruction;  Cyrus to the Babylonians, Titus to the Jews for their rejection of Christ.

Jesus is the Prince who confirms the covenant, for that is the reason Messiah came to the Jews.

I share much of this in a previous post above...

 

Edited June 5, 2024 by BlindSeeker