What really does the New Testament reveal in terms of “tribulation and great tribulation”

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Meaning, that if Jesus had not gone to the cross “in the midst of the week,” then WE, ALL OF US, would not be saved! We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood

What?..... wait..... What????

We could pay for our sins through our own blood?

Brother..... you really need to explain what you are saying with this statement. 

I won't comment on it until you do.

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

I think Matthew 24 is about after the church has gone.

Well, I can assure you that your interpretation is in keeping with “today’s accepted interpretations.” So, you are in good company.

 

But, all I would ask is for you and others to give this new interpretation your consideration… that is all. I feel very good with it. Thanks so much, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

55 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

What?..... wait..... What????

We could pay for our sins through our own blood?

Brother..... you really need to explain what you are saying with this statement. 

I won't comment on it until you do.

 

Hey Joe! Great to hear from you again. 
 

No, No and another No! I am NOT saying we CAN pay for our own sins, I am saying that IF JESUS DID NOT GO TO THE CROSS WE EOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR OUR OWN SINS …. And that is IMPOSSIBLE!

 

Consequently, because God’s plan of salvation INCLUDED the cross, our sins CAN BE FORGIVEN.

Therefore, Matthew 24:22 should be interpreted that the last 7 years of the 70 weeks of years prophecy WERE SHORTENED (He was cut off exactly 3.5 years of the last week), and because He went to the cross BEFORE the end of the last week, we could be saved.

Otherwise , without the cross, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED.  
 

Charlie

[tatwo]

@Charlie744 

I read and reread all your posts Charlie…all of it....it boils down to this for me.

So, part of my mind is thinking about “tribulation unto great tribulation” as the scripture delineates over the course of the ages of creation…with a specific and direct focus to our day today…and its contemporary effect…which was the OP???

Part of my mind is contemplating Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21…

Part of my mind is incorporating the book of Daniel. I am multitasking...

As I have now worked this all out in the mind of my spirit and soul…I see that you took us off the course I was attempting to travel…no problem…lets gently merge back on to the original pathway…if we need to…and I am not sure that we can do that from here. Maybe my OP is simply of no real importance or necessity except for what it has become?

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for the references! Matthew 24 is such an interesting and important series of verses that have been discussed since the time of the Messiah. They are indeed quite difficult to interpret. 

To deconstruct scenarios such as the prophetic vision in Matthew 24…it requires the Holy Spirit to personally reveal them to one’s spirit…and this generally happens over time (humility, study, prayer, listening, patience, a right spirit) in order to get Truth based understanding…such is the same for all of Scripture.

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Almost all commentators agree they speak of the end times, and that may just be the case, but during my study of Daniel, I think they might speak to the time of the Messiah- His first coming.

So they speak to both is what you are saying? Are you familiar with the concepts of “type and shadow?”

Generally speaking…prophecy has multiple iterations which will ultimately come to specific fulfillment at some point. A simple example is the “lamb”…Abel’s lamb…Abraham’s ram…Israel’s sacrificial lamb all fulfilled in the “Lamb of God.”

Though the prophetic symbolism or reality was introduced in the days of Able…it came to its fullest expression in the Lord Yahshua Christ…which was the Lord’s intention from before the foundations of creation. We see a circle if you will…for good reason.

With the increasing “arc of the prophetic” over time…a prophecy can be fulfilled more than once. However they do have their final fulfillment…this includes the Abomination of Desolation (AoD.)

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So, how does this tie into Matthew? It ties into Matthew, Mark and Luke. 

24:22… Unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved….

Once again, all commentators treat this as an end time event when God will have to intervene in the destruction on earth otherwise everyone would perish. But I believe this is also speaking about the Messiah (His first coming).

You seemingly summarize your conclusion in three parts as follows…

#1

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Meaning, that if Jesus had not gone to the cross “in the midst of the week,” then WE, ALL OF US, would not be saved!

So your focus is the timing of the cross…not on the possibility that the cross would not take place.

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood.

Charlie…“We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood.” Who would actually put this in “writing?” What are you thinking?

#2

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

His plan of salvation from before the beginning of the world included the cross. Jesus knew He would go to the cross BEFORE the completion of the last 7 years of His ministry (70 weeks of years prophecy)…

Of course God knows the outcome before He creates the thing…I see your point here Charlie…and I agree with these two sentences…because it came forth from Lord to Daniel.

#3

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

had He NOT shortened these days, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED.

I hear you saying…if He had not been crucified at any point before the end of the 70^th week there would be no accepted offering that could atone for sin. Again…your focus is on the “timing”…not whether or not the atonement would be offered and accepted.

You are pointing to His death at “3.5 year mark” versus the full 7 years…leaving the last 3.5 years as the “Unless those days had been cut short” which is represented as the midpoint of the 7 year period of the 70^th week.

In the context of your scenario here as you are presenting it…who are the elect?

Additionally, what actually do you understand to have been wrought with the cross?

What about those last 3.5 years Charlie?

Tatwo...:)

[Charlie744]

This comment is MOT saying WE can pay for our own sin, it is saying (meant to say) that WITHOUT the cross we would HAVE to pay for our own sins (our own blood), AND THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. Only the blood of the Lamb can forgive our sins. 
 

Therefore, IF GOD did not go to the cross (said in another way, “unless those days (last week of the prophecy), were shortened (He was “cut off”), NO flesh would be saved (again, without the cross, NO ONE COULD OR WOULD BE SAVED).

20 hours ago, tatwo said:

#2

Of course God knows the outcome before He creates the thing…I see your point here Charlie…and I agree with these two sentences…because it came forth from Lord to Daniel.

#3

I hear you saying…if He had not been crucified at any point before the end of the 70^th week there would be no accepted offering that could atone for sin. Again…your focus is on the “timing”…not whether or not the atonement would be offered and accepted.

Yes, without the cross there can be no salvation for us. But, this is His offering that will be accepted or rejected. He will never force Himself on us. 
 

Not too sure about your comment- sorry. For me, the timing of the cross is clear - “in the midst of the week.” This is 3.5 years into the last 7 years and thus, this week was “shortened.” 
 

I believe Jesus is not speaking to an end time event but His sacrifice on the cross. Same with His sayings in Matthew, Mark and Luke. We can see the cross from 3 different perspectives. 
 

Of course I realize that these and so many more of my “new interpretations” significantly differ than those that are “today’s accepted interpretations,” but one of the most important errors in “today’s accepted interpretations,” (imo) is that, throughout Daniel, so many important verses / prophecies, etc., are not properly interpreted and have all been thrown into the future. 
 

The book of Daniel is about His plan to restore His people back to Jerusalem (70 weeks of years prophecy) with the most important event in the history of mankind- the restoration of the final piece of furniture in the Sanctuary- the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah. And He will incorporate His sacrifice within this “plan of restoration” the cross which will take place DURING the last week. Thus, verses 9:24-27 speak of the Messiah and the events that are caused by the cross. 

 

20 hours ago, tatwo said:

You are pointing to His death at “3.5 year mark” versus the full 7 years…leaving the last 3.5 years as the “Unless those days had been cut short” which is represented as the midpoint of the 7 year period of the 70^th week.

Yes. 

20 hours ago, tatwo said:

In the context of your scenario here as you are presenting it…who are the elect?

The “elect” are those who will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. 

20 hours ago, tatwo said:

Additionally, what actually do you understand to have been wrought with the cross?

Please help me with this question. The cross has determined and identified the only path to salvation. This event split time in half, it will split mankind in half - those who will accept or reject Him and find salvation… 

20 hours ago, tatwo said:

What about those last 3.5 years Charlie?

Tatwo...:

Not sure what you are looking for here. The last 7 years of the 70 weeks of years prophecy was “set aside” for the Messiah to :

1) complete the restoration of  the destruction of Jerusalem, and all the things that were completely destroyed by the Babylonians. The Ark was the first piece of furniture taken away (Jeremiah), and it would be the last piece restored in the form of the Messiah,

2) He arrived exactly on time - on the first day of the 70th week of the prophecy and was given by His Father the 6 requirements to complete (9:24). 
 

3) Despite the timing of the cross (which was always within God’s plan of salvation), He would fulfill 9:24. Thus, “unless, even though those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved.”

 

 

[Charlie744]

20 hours ago, tatwo said:

You seemingly summarize your conclusion in three parts as follows…

#1

So your focus is the timing of the cross…not on the possibility that the cross would not take place.

Charlie…“We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood.” Who would actually put this in “writing?” What are you thinking?

#2

Of course God knows the outcome before He creates the thing…I see your point here Charlie…and I agree with these two sentences…because it came forth from Lord to Daniel.

#3

I hear you saying…if He had not been crucified at any point before the end of the 70^th week there would be no accepted offering that could atone for sin. Again…your focus is on the “timing”…not whether or not the atonement would be offered and accepted.

You are pointing to His death at “3.5 year mark” versus the full 7 years…leaving the last 3.5 years as the “Unless those days had been cut short” which is represented as the midpoint of the 7 year period of the 70^th week.

In the context of your scenario here as you are presenting it…who are the elect?

Additionally, what actually do you understand to have been wrought with the cross?

What about those last 3.5 years Charlie?

Tatwo...:)

Oh, did not complete your last question about the 3.5 years… 

There are two parties to the 70 weeks of years prophecy: the Messiah, and His people.

His people are given a section / period of time carved out of the 70 to complete their part in the restoration of the city, the Temple, etc. And they did complete their part. 
 

The only piece of the restoration from the Babylonian destruction that could NOT be completed by the Jews was the Presence of God (Ark) in the Sanctuary. Only the coming Messiah could fulfill this part… and He did by arriving on the 1st day of the last week of the prophecy.

The Jews had no further obligation in the restoration process… Jesus also fulfilled His part in the restoration process, but He still had to complete 9:24. 
 

Jesus would fulfill 9:24 despite being cut off in the midst of the week. He did not have to physically continue to the last day of the last week to fulfill His God given mission. 9:24 was completed at the cross in 3.5 years of the 7. 
 

Everything that was to take place within the 70 weeks were fulfilled. But there is only one “open item,” if you will - because the Jews rejected and crucified their Messiah, it would stop the counting of the 4th Great Jubilee cycle which was timed to perfectly match the period of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The cross “in the midst of the week” prevented the completion by 3.5 years. This must be completed before the Messiah can return. 
 

Thus, God would place the completion of this 3.5 year period AFTER the time of the Gentiles. He would open their eyes and recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior and preach the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus to the world for 3.5 years. Then, the return of Jesus. This will also complete the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle. 
 

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

This comment is MOT saying WE can pay for our own sin, it is saying (meant to say) that WITHOUT the cross we would HAVE to pay for our own sins (our own blood), AND THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. Only the blood of the Lamb can forgive our sins. 
 

Therefore, IF GOD did not go to the cross (said in another way, “unless those days (last week of the prophecy), were shortened (He was “cut off”), NO flesh would be saved (again, without the cross, NO ONE COULD OR WOULD BE SAVED).

Understood...thank you.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

I believe Jesus is not speaking to an end time event but His sacrifice on the cross. Same with His sayings in Matthew, Mark and Luke. We can see the cross from 3 different perspectives. 

Ok now that you have actually "spoke" it..."I believe Jesus is not speaking to an end time event." This is something I thought you were "saying"...but could not find that you had come out and "said" it.

It's both Charlie...in the immediate time frame in which He spoke it to the "disciples"...as you have noted...it is clear that He was most certainly referencing the time of His sacrifice on the cross...and the next 30-40 years of the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and the temple...simultaneous with the initial stages of the Body of Christ having been introduce into creation.

It...however...is also a prophetic statement concerning the end of this age of creation. This can only be understood with a full revelation from the Holy Spirit...of the entirety of what was wrought by the cross...most have missed it. Because they are content with going to heaven in a rapture.

Tatwo...:)

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Ok now that you have actually "spoke" it..."I believe Jesus is not speaking to an end time event." This is something I thought you were "saying"...but could not find that you had come out and "said" it.

It's both Charlie...in the immediate time frame in which He spoke it to the "disciples"...as you have noted...it is clear that He was most certainly referencing the time of His sacrifice on the cross...and the next 30-40 years of the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and the temple...simultaneous with the initial stages of the Body of Christ having been introduce into creation.

It...however...is also a prophetic statement concerning the end of this age of creation. This can only be understood with a full revelation from the Holy Spirit...of the entirety of what was wrought by the cross...most have missed it. Because they are content with going to heaven in a rapture.

Tatwo...:)

Please help me with your understanding that these verses also have an end time application.

 

Certainly, the cross is applicable to all generations after it occurred, but I am assuming you might be seeing a specific end time application that I am not seeing or am aware of… 

Thanks, Charlie