What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Freegrace,

Firstly the 12 disciples were to witness of Jesus life, death, resurrection and ascension. Then they were to tell Israel of their coming Messiah, (Jesus) who would set up His kingdom rule in Israel over the nations as promised by the prophets. That is why the 11 disciples asked Jesus just before He ascended, " Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom (rule) to Israel?"  (Acts 1: 6)

The qualification of being an apostle was to have seen the Lord.  Paul was personally taught by Jesus "in a revelation" and noted that he was in Arabia for 3.5 years, the same time the 11 were being taught by Jesus.

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Meanwhile the Lord gave further revelation to the Apostle Paul. This was that Jesus was bringing together a whole new group called `the Body of Christ, the New Man.` (Eph. 3: 1 - 7,    2: 15) Note the 12 disciples did not understand about this as their purpose was to Israel and their rulership over the nations. (Gal. 2: 8 - 14)

Paul taught his disciple how to make disciples - "You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 1 & 2)

The disciple Paul taught was Timothy, a pastor himself.  He had the gift of preaching, evangelizing and teaching.  Eph 4:11.

The point of the OP is that the GC isn't a command for all believers.  It is a command for those with the teaching gifts;  evangelists, pastors and teachers.

And the purpose is stated in Eph 4:12.

I think the idea that the GC is for everyone simply lays a guilt trip on those who don't have the necessary spiritual gifts to fulfill the command.  

Every believer is given at least one spiritual gift by the Holy Spirit.  The reason is for "building up" the church.  

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I agree with some of the points that the OP has articulated, specifically where preaching is concerned. Some are called to be evangelists and as such, they are sent to preach in the manner that the Lord has equipped them to do. This does not mean that our testimony --- both words and deeds --- does not preach to those who hear and witness but rather, that preaching is a calling in the Body. 

I do disagree about the lack of prophets in the Body but then, my understanding of prophecy is radically different than the concept adhered to by many. Prophecy is not soothsaying by any means; prophecy is forth-telling words given to us by the Spirit to speak. I have asserted elsewhere that anyone who belongs to Christ can be a prophet. Whomever dwells with the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells with them, can be a prophet. 

You are correct.  The gift of prophet is given to those who be pastors, teachers, etc.

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, Sower said:

 

                      The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and

                                 he that winneth souls is wise.

                                      As it is written:

         “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

                              Seems sorta obvious to me...the who.

    Do you remember who gave/shared with you the biblical saving understanding of the gospel?
     A faithful mom or dad, a friend, a stranger, your pastor, a radio, your boss, a tract, grandma, etc etc etc......
                                 Someone faithful cared enough. It's called good news..

                                              Aren't you glad they did..... 

 
 

I hope everyone realizes that I'm NOT advocating that believers keep their mouths shut.  Of course every believer is to live a life so worthy that others will naturally ASK them the "reason for the hope (confidence) they have" (1 Pet 3:15).

Evangelism among the 'pew sitters" most naturally flows from their life.  Or should.  

But the idea that the GC means "every disciple make a disciple" only leads to frustration and guilt.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The qualification of being an apostle was to have seen the Lord.  Paul was personally taught by Jesus "in a revelation" and noted that he was in Arabia for 3.5 years, the same time the 11 were being taught by Jesus.

The disciple Paul taught was Timothy, a pastor himself.  He had the gift of preaching, evangelizing and teaching.  Eph 4:11.

The point of the OP is that the GC isn't a command for all believers.  It is a command for those with the teaching gifts;  evangelists, pastors and teachers.

And the purpose is stated in Eph 4:12.

I think the idea that the GC is for everyone simply lays a guilt trip on those who don't have the necessary spiritual gifts to fulfill the command.  

Every believer is given at least one spiritual gift by the Holy Spirit.  The reason is for "building up" the church.  

Hi FG,

The qualification of the pre-ascension apostles was that - `one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 22)

Then when the Lord ascended to the Father`s right hand He gave - `apostles, prophets...` (Eph. 4: 11) These are ministries of the ascended Lord for the building up of the body of Christ.

I agree that the GC was for the 12 disciples for Israel.

As for the Body of Christ as the Lord enables we can help people come to know the Lord, and also share what we know and help others mature in the Lord. 

`Christ - from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 16)

[FreeGrace]

55 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi FG,

The qualification of the pre-ascension apostles was that - `one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 22)

My vote is still for Paul as the 12th.  He did see the risen Lord.  So he was a witness of Christ's resurrection.  I believe seeing the risen Lord is proof of His resurrection.  And given how much coverage Paul received in the "Acts of the apostles" vs no further mention of Matthias, I would be hard pressed to think that Matthias had more "rank" than Paul.  But that's just me.  :) 

55 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Then when the Lord ascended to the Father`s right hand He gave - `apostles, prophets...` (Eph. 4: 11) These are ministries of the ascended Lord for the building up of the body of Christ.

Yes.  The gift of Eph 4:11 are for those "commissioned" to carry out the GC.

55 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

I agree that the GC was for the 12 disciples for Israel.

I see the whole world rather than just Israel.  Remember, the church age did away with distinctions.

Gal3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

55 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

As for the Body of Christ as the Lord enables we can help people come to know the Lord, and also share what we know and help others mature in the Lord.

Absolutely.  But the GC wasn't commanded of every believer, as is commonly assumed.

55 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Christ - from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 16)

Amen!

[FreeGrace]

22 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I agree with some of the points that the OP has articulated, specifically where preaching is concerned. Some are called to be evangelists and as such, they are sent to preach in the manner that the Lord has equipped them to do. This does not mean that our testimony --- both words and deeds --- does not preach to those who hear and witness but rather, that preaching is a calling in the Body.

Yes, and I made that clear in f/u posts.

22 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I do disagree about the lack of prophets in the Body but then, my understanding of prophecy is radically different than the concept adhered to by many. Prophecy is not soothsaying by any means; prophecy is forth-telling words given to us by the Spirit to speak. I have asserted elsewhere that anyone who belongs to Christ can be a prophet. Whomever dwells with the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells with them, can be a prophet. 

Since many think of the OT type of 'prophet', I prefer to use words that don't bring up that association.  Strong's Greek is:  a prophet, poet; a person gifted at expositing divine truth.  Given that, that's what pastors are supposed to do.  So I prefer using "pastor".  To avoid confusion.

[FreeGrace]

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You have studied the Word and come to a conclusion. It is quite clear that if this conclusion is your foundation, you will always arrive at the same result. But in every crucial conclusion you never gave a scripture. Yes. I did it too, but I wrote assuming you knew of what I spoke. You were building a case. And in some you went against scripture. For instance you peg the end of "the Jewish age" as the resurrection.

I didn't peg the end of the Jewish age as the resurrection.  The resurrection of all believers will occur 'when He comes', a clear reference to the Second Advent.  Which occurs at the end of the Tribulation.

Could you quote a post where your claim is refering to?

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But scripture says the Law and the prophets were until John Baptist. Or, you "believe" Paul was the 12th Apostle. On what basis? Galatians Chapters 1 and 2 separates Paul from the 12.

Simply the fact that the New Jerusalem has 12 foundations, with the names of the apostles on them.  One name per foundation.  Consider Matthias.  Who came up with the plan?  

Acts 1:15 - In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)

v.20 - “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:  “‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ =nd,
“‘May another take his place of leadership.’  

v.21 - Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

It was Peter's idea.  He didn't have the best reputation among the disciples during the Lord's ministry.  Actually, none of them did.  They were scared to death in the violent storm when Jesus was sleeping.  They had no faith.  

It was men who chose the 2 for God to choose.  The plan didn't come from God at all.  Paul's choice was crystal clear from the start.  No human was involved in that choice.

Acts 9:5 - “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.  “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

This was Paul's election.  And what he was chosen to do.

Act 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 - I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

This choice was only of God.  Unlike the choice of Matthias.  And compare the coverage of Paul's ministry compared to whatever Matthias did.  No comparison.  Paul did more and wrote more than any other apostle.  Paul even had to brace Peter for his cowardice.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You have decided that the Apostles were trained because they were capable.

Where did I decide that?  It was not until that ragtag group received the Holy Spirit did they accomplish anything.  They were trained by Jesus.  But they needed the indwelling Holy Spirit and His filling to serve God according to His will.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But Paul says that he does not come with eloquence. You write that the Apostles stayed in Jerusalem to train others.

Because that was part of the GC.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But does not Matthew 25 say that each man is given a divine talent "according to his natural ability".

That would refer to what people are born with.  The indwelling and filling of the Spirit is for service to God.  And supercedes any 'natural talent' that people may have.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

What training is then needed?

Did Jesus waste His time then?  And that would make Matt 28:20 irrelevant.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

At the same time you say that the Apostles were capable and trained for the gospel, but they refused this duty and stayed in Jerusalem.

I never said that.  There were many Jews in Jerusalem who were being evangelized by the apostles.  They needed training.   Just as Jesus commanded them to do.  "teach them everything I have commanded you".  That's the training.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I accept your opinion that the choice of Matthias in Acts 1 was a work of men. But consider this. Here was a group of 120 followers of Christ who had witnessed the power of His resurrection.

And yet, none of them were present when Jesus told "the eleven" the GC.  That's the point.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

They had been praying for ten days. They applied the test for an Apostle to the candidates. They used the same method as the High Priest does with the Urim and the Thummim. I dare say that God was asked and God was given the final say.

No.  They just rolled the dice, and the "winner" was Matthias.  How often does his name come up outside of Acts 1?

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I support your freedom to reach a conclusion after a study of things, but then you must bring the opposing arguments and show why they don't apply.

I will await any evidence you may find.  

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

For instance, salvation is by the mouth, but the energy behind it is FAITH.

In Rom 10:10 Paul used the word 'sozo' for deliverance from God's wrath against disobedience.  See ch 1:18.  

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

The red words refer to eternal soul salvation.  The blue words refer to deliverance from God's wrath against sin.  

Notice where believing comes from:  the heart.  The mouth professes one's faith, but isn't the source of salvation in the sense of eternal soul salvation.  Professing one's faith is an act of obedience and lifestyle.  Those who comply will be delivered from God's wrath.  

Yes, Paul is warning believers about God's wrath against sin, which includes the sin of believers.  Heb 12:11 says that God's discipline is painful.  

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

And faith comes from HEARING. Paul admonishes us to speak or who will get to HEAR. And then we discover, after due diligence, that ALL the gifts are speaking gifts. Even miracles causes others to speak and many believe s they did after Peter raised Tabitha.

A bit of a broad brush here.  Some gifts clearly are speaking gifts, such as found in Eph 4:11.  However, spiritual gifts are for the building up of the saints.  That involves SERVICE to others.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

This is a powerful argument that even the newest Christian, untrained, can give the gospel with joy and energy. Did not Jesus once tell a man He had healed not to follow Him, but to go and testify of what Jesus had done. What special training was needed for that and why did our Lord send him to preach without training?

I'm curious as to why there seems to be so much resistance to 'training'?  

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

And then there is God's honor at stake. Paul says that we are flavor to those who believe and inherit eternal life, and also a flavor to those who hear and believe not. At the Judgment Seat they have no excuse before a just God. Does one have to trained, gifted and eloquent to tell an man that he will enter perdition for his sins? How much eloquence do you need to tell a mother that her toddler is playing in a busy road?

I think you have missed the point.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But all in all you broached a good subject. It made us think. It made me think and bring the matter before my Lord. Do I satisfy my Lord's evangelistic demands? I am certainly not gifted as an Evangelist, but by my life and my words i must preach Christ.

And you must do what you feel obliged to do.  But not everyone is commanded to fulfill the GC.  That was very specific, and to a very specific group of men.  They were commissioned to build the church (body of Christ) in the 1st Century.  In fact, they established the church.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

P.S. You've no doubt seen that I did not post many scriptures. I calculate that you are knowledgeable of the Bible and know exactly what I am talking about. But one cannot go unnoticed - Luke 12

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

This was to "John's messengers" and John, in Jesus' estimation, was the greatest ever born to a woman. Did John die without being born of the Spirit (Jn.3:6)??? What was John doing with disciples? Did John HEAR and not believe. Did he reject his Head and so lose his head?

Great questions!  It seems that John had lost his faith in his cousin, the man he preached was the "Savior of the world".  Certainly John was at a low point.  Remember that the indwelling Holy Spirit was not for every believer.  In fact, only a very few believers were indwelt with the Spirit, and usually for specific work, like being king, prophet, or the skilled artisans who built the tabernacle, etc.

Jesus quoted directly from the OT to John's disciples, that proved that He WAS the Messiah.  

It is clear that John had believed in the Messiah, or Paul couldn't have said this about him:

Acts 19:4 - Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

He was obviously saved.

 

{Edit}  after posting this, I couldn't find Ad Hoc's post that I replied to.  What's going on?

Edited May 17, 2024 by FreeGrace

[Tristen]

Christianity is not a legalistic belief system. There is no, 'thou shalt, thou shalt not' list of rules in the Christian covenant. Therefore, there is no such law stating, 'thou shalt bear public witness to the Gospel of Christ at every opportunity' - that every individual Christian believer is obligated to follow.

The "commission" to spread the Gospel is to the church. Christ has given the church (a.k.a. His Body comprised of different parts with differing functions) a range of gifts which work together to accomplish different aspects of this task.

 

 

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, Tristen said:

Christianity is not a legalistic belief system. There is no, 'thou shalt, thou shalt not' list of rules in the Christian covenant.

Christianity is a belief system.  One must hear the promise, and believe the promise.

7 hours ago, Tristen said:

The "commission" to spread the Gospel is to the church. Christ has given the church (a.k.a. His Body comprised of different parts with differing functions) a range of gifts which work together to accomplish different aspects of this task.

The OP showed from Scripture to whom Jesus gave the GC.  "the eleven".  And in those days just after Jesus was ascended to heaven, Luke says the assembly of believers was 120.  Yet, Jesus gave the commission only to "the eleven", those He had been teaching for the 3.5 years of His ministry.

The GC is two-fold.  1) make disciples (evangelism) and 2) teach them everything Jesus taught His apostles, the eleven (discipleship).

The GC in the NT is fulfilled by men gifted with the teaching gifts, per Eph 4:11.  The purpose is to build up the church.

[Neighbor]

Hi, John Piper addressed most of the issues being questioned  here in a short  concise one page long response to the questions. It may be found by searching : Is the great Commission for every individual Christian? , Ask Pastor John, at Desiring God .

Might be  good reference  for discussion purposes.