1290/1335 days=2000 years??

[Michael37]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I apologize for its length but it is the entire Chapter 9 commentary - easily, the longest in the entire book.

Please let me know what you think should you decide to read it, best wishes always, Charlie

Hi @Charlie744

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[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi @Charlie744

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I see. I will not attach such a large document… 

[Charlie744]

On 6/2/2024 at 3:38 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Well, there is no short and simple answer to your questions I can come up with. So, here are some of my well documented notes fully explained on where and how we come up with the final week, seven days representing seven years.

1. The scope: Daniel 9:24 - 490 years
2. The 483 years: Daniel 9:25
3. The church age: Daniel 9:26
4. The last 7 years: Daniels 70th week - Time of Jacob’s trouble (3.5 years)

  As the events recorded in Rev. 6:1 to Rev. 19:21, are connected with the last, or “Seventieth Week,” of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS,” it is necessary that we stop here and explain what is meant by Daniel’s “Seventieth Week.”

[Dennis note: The 70^th week (time of Jacob’s trouble) starts exactly when this occurs]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3.5 years – A.O.D.) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [emphasis added]

The Prophet Daniel had been 68 years (B.C. 538) in Babylon, and by a study of the Prophecy of Jeremiah (Jer. 25:11), he discovered that the “Seventy Years” Captivity of his people was nearing its end, and so he set his face unto the Lord, to seek by prayer and supplication (Dan. 9:3) to know the exact time of its ending, and while he was praying the Angel Gabriel appeared to enlighten him. (Dan. 9:20–23.) Daniel was concerned about the expiration of the “Seventy Years” of the Captivity, and the restoration of his people to Palestine, and the rebuilding of the City of Jerusalem and of the Temple. But the Angel Gabriel came to disclose to him something more important than that. While he doubtless informed Daniel that God would fulfill His promise as to the “Seventy Years” of the Captivity, which, as we know, He did, he also made known to Daniel that that would not end the troubles of Israel. That while the Jews were to return to Jerusalem at the end of the “Seventy Years” of Captivity, there was a longer period to elapse before the Kingdom would be restored to them, a period of

“SEVENTY WEEKS.”

  “SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon Thy People (Daniel’s people the Jews) and upon the Holy City (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the ‘MESSIAH THE PRINCE’ shall be SEVEN WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS shall MESSIAH BE CUT OFF, but not for Himself: and the people (Roman) of the PRINCE THAT SHALL COME (Antichrist) shall destroy the City and the Sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the Covenant with many for ONE WEEK (the last or Seventieth Week): and in the midst of THE WEEK he (Antichrist) shall cause the Sacrifice and the oblations to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Christ, Matt. 24:15) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” Dan. 9:24–27.

This Vision of the “SEVENTY WEEKS” is the most important revelation, in many ways, made in the Scriptures. We are here told that this Period of “SEVENTY WEEKS” was determined upon Daniel’s PEOPLE (the Jews), and upon the HOLY CITY (Jerusalem). This is very important. It discloses the fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” have nothing to do with the Gentiles, or the Church, but only with the JEWS and JERUSALEM. It also discloses another important fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” only cover the period when the Jews are DWELLING IN THEIR OWN LAND, and does not cover the present period of their Dispersion. We are told in verse 24 that these “SEVENTY WEEKS” were determined for a SIX-FOLD purpose.

1. TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION.

It is the transgression of ISRAEL that is here referred to, and the finishing of it will be the turning away of UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. Rom. 11:26–27. The transgression of Israel has not yet come to an end, and will not until they as a Nation shall be converted.

2.TO MAKE AN END OF SINS.

The margin reads to “seal up” sins. The sins of ISRAEL. This may refer to the author of Israel’s sins—Satan, who shall at that time be “sealed up” in the Pit. Rev. 20:1–3.

3. TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY.

This refers to ISRAEL’S iniquity in the rejection of their Messiah. While atonement was made for their sin on the Cross, its application to Israel as a Nation awaits the day when they shall look on Him whom they pierced (Zech. 12:10), and a fountain shall be opened to the “House of David,” and the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanliness, Zech. 13:1, and a nation, the Jewish Nation, shall be “born again” in a day. Isa. 66:8.

4. TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS.

When the “Transgression of ISRAEL” has come to an end, and her sins are “sealed up,” then everlasting righteousness shall be brought in. The King will come, and the Kingdom be restored to Israel, and the Millennium will be here, and the “Knowledge of the Lord” shall cover the earth, as the waters cover the sea. Hab. 2:14.

5. TO SEAL UP THE VISION AND PROPHECY.

When the “Transgression of ISRAEL” has ceased and they have uninterrupted communion with God, there will no longer be any need for “Vision” or “Prophet.” It is a noteworthy fact that “Vision” and “Prophecy” has been confined to the Jewish race.

6. TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.

This probably refers to the anointing of the “Most Holy Place,” or the “Holy of Holies” of the MILLENNIAL TEMPLE, described by Ezekiel. Ezek. 41. There is great significance in this announcement; for, although the Tabernacle of Moses was anointed (Lev. 8:10), there is no mention of such a ceremony in the Consecration of either Solomon’s Temple, or the Temple of Zerubbabel, for those buildings were considered merely as continuations of the Mosaic Tabernacle. But when the King comes back and sits upon the Throne of His father David, there is to be a magnificent Temple erected, the like of which has never as yet been seen on this planet of ours. There will be no “Ark of the Covenant” with its “Mercy Seat,” in the “Most Holy Place” of the Millennial Temple (Jer. 3:16), but in its place will stand the ROYAL THRONE on which the “BRANCH,” the Messiah shall sit as a KING-PRIEST (Zech. 6:12–13), and whose anointing is here referred to.

Now as the fulfilment of this “Six-Fold” purpose of the “SEVENTY WEEKS” synchronizes with the things that shall happen at the close of this Dispensation, and that are described in Rev. 6:1; 19:21, it is clear that the last, or “SEVENTIETH WEEK” of Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks,” covers the “TIME PERIOD” of Rev. 6:1; 19:21, and confirms the claim that that “Period” is Jewish and has nothing to do with the Church. To prove this it is only necessary to outline Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks.”

The “Seventy Weeks” are divided into “THREE PERIODS” of 7 Weeks, and 62 Weeks, and 1 Week. They cover the time from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, which was the 14th day of the month Nisan (March) B. C. 445, to the Second Stage (The Revelation) of the Second Coming of Christ. The “First Period,” 7 WEEKS, refers to the time required to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, which was 49 years, thus giving us the “Key” to the meaning of the word “WEEK,” for if 7 WEEKS are equal to 49 YEARS, then 1 WEEK is equal to 7 YEARS. Now we are told that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (B. C. 445) unto the “MESSIAH THE PRINCE,” shall be 7 WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS, or 69 WEEKS, or, if 1 WEEK is equal to 7 YEARS, 7 × 69 or 483 YEARS. Now Jesus, as “MESSIAH THE PRINCE,” rode in triumph into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, April 2, A. D. 30. The difference in time between B. C. 445 and A. D. 30 is 475 years, but, as we have seen, 69 WEEKS equal 483 years, a difference of 8 years. How are we to explain this difference?

The 475 years between B. C. 445 and A. D. 30, are Julian or Astronomical years of 365¼ days each, but when we reduce them to Calendar years of 360 days each, the year used in the Scriptures, we find that we have exactly 483 years of 360 days each. This proves that there was no break between the “First” and “Second” Periods of the “Seventy Weeks,” and that the prophecy that there should be 69 WEEKS to the coming of “MESSIAH THE PRINCE” was literally fulfilled. Now as 69 WEEKS of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS” have already expired, and all that was prophesied to occur during those “SEVENTY WEEKS” has not yet been fulfilled, it stands to reason that the things unfulfilled are still future, and must be fulfilled in the remaining “ONE WEEK,” and that that “ONE WEEK” shall be “SEVEN YEARS” long, for it must be of the same length as the other “WEEKS.” This then gives us the length of time of the reign of the “PRINCE THAT SHALL COME” (Antichrist), who we are told in verse 27 (Dan. 9:27) shall make a Covenant with the Jews for “ONE WEEK” (7 years), the last or “SEVENTIETH WEEK,” and that in the “Middle” of the WEEK he shall break the Covenant and cause the “sacrifice and oblation” that the Jews will have restored, to cease, and then the “overspreading of abominations that maketh desolate,” shall continue until the end of the WEEK. As this is just what is foretold will occur during the reign of Antichrist (2. Thess. 2:3–4) we see that the “Period” between Rev. 6:1 and Rev. 19:21, that we are now about to study, is the “Third Period” of ONE WEEK, of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS” and that it is to last SEVEN YEARS. From this we see that while there was no “Time Space” between the “First” and “Second” Periods of the “Seventy Weeks,” there is a “Time Space” between the “Second” and “Third” Periods or the 69th and 70th Week, of already (A. D. 1919) 1889 years, or the present Church Age. This was hidden so the Church should not fail to watch. See the Chart, “Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.”¹¹ Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation: A Study of the Last Prophetic Book of Holy Scripture. Philadelphia, PA: Rev. Clarence Larkin Estate, 1919. Print.

There will be a “total” of 70 sevens until God basically wraps up history and fulfills the rest of His promises that He made to the Jewish people. However, after 62 sevens and 7 sevens for a total of 69 sevens have passed, after the decree that goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem from Daniel’s time, the Anointed One or the Messiah will be “cut off.” That’s exactly what we see with Jesus’ Triumphal entry into Jerusalem. History records for us the date when King Artexerxes issued that commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in 445 B.C. So, if you take the 69 sevens or years mentioned above that need to transpire before the Messiah is cut off, and times that by 7 for each year, you get a total of 483 years. To calculate the exact number of days, you need to take the 483 years and times it by 360 (because the Jewish calendar only had 360 days for each year) and you get a grand total of 173,880 days. So, what happened 173,880 days after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Well that just happens to be the exact date Jesus made His Triumphal entry into Jerusalem where He was rejected or cut off from His people! That’s not by chance! And neither is the “event” that is presented in the next verse. ¹

¹ Crone, Billy. The Seals: A Panoramic View of the First Half of the Seven Year Tribulation (pp. 15-16). Get A Life Ministries. Kindle Edition. 

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off: These are weeks of years. Assumes the first seven weeks [a week equals seven years] have already transpired and serves to summarize the passing of the previous 69 weeks of years [483 years]. There is a gap of unknown length of time between the 69th and 70th week (the church age - age of Grace). This gap between the 69th and 70th week is the church age or age of Grace. The Hebrews use the solar calendar of 360-day years. The time span from Artaxerxes decree to rebuild the city in March 444 B.C. until Christ’s crucifixion in April A.D. 33, covered 483 prophetical years (173,880 days).

In Daniel 9:26, pay attention to the colon [;] after the word sanctuary. This colon now represents about 2,000 years so far; and at the colon it shifts focus to the seven year tribulation period.

Notice Luke 4:18-19 where Jesus is quoting Isaiah 61:2 and ends verse 19 with a period. He does not complete the last half of Isaiah 61:2, because it is yet future and has lasted about two thousand years thus far (a gap).

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [<- this period] 20. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; [left out]

… but not for himself: Jesus died on the Cross as a substitutionary death in our place. He took on all past, present, and future sins of all humanity and nailed them to the Cross. We need only to accept this free gift of Salvation by asking Jesus into our lives, believing in faith in Him and Him alone to deliver us, and repenting and turning away from our sins and following Him. ¹

 

¹ Dennis commentary

Dennis, if you do not mind, we might look at our different interpretations one at a time and we can go back and forth and comment on each. The word document I submitted would not pass through... 

Consequently, I would like to respond to the first item you mentioned above regarding the 490 year prophecy.

Here are my thoughts...

24a-70 weeks are determined

24b-for your people and your holy city

Gabriel begins the Lord’s interpretation by telling Daniel that seventy weeks (weeks of years, or 490 years) are determined for his people and his holy city. This introduction sets the stage for the prophecy by establishing a clear timeframe and focus. To understand why God has Gabriel start the prophecy this way, it's helpful to reflect on earlier chapters of Daniel—specifically chapters 2, 7, and 8. In those chapters, the Lord provided dreams and visions in two parts: first the dream sequence, followed by a more detailed interpretation sequence. Therefore, it might be appropriate to approach Chapter 9 in a similar fashion.

In the first two verses (24a and b), Gabriel outlines the external borders or boundaries for this prophecy. He defines the "time" boundary as seventy weeks. Unlike Chapter 2, which describes four physical kingdoms, Chapter 9 reveals three separate yet consecutive time periods of 7, 62, and 1 week, making up the 70 weeks. This structured approach helps Daniel and future readers to understand the prophecy in a clear and organized manner.

Within this period, Daniel will record both the restorative and destructive events / verses that are specifically meant for the Jews. Consequently, when the Jews return to Jerusalem, the visions—the chazon and the mareh, as well as the Chapter 9 prophecy—will no longer be "shut up" or "sealed." These prophecies are intended for the Jews to read, study, and interpret along with the rest of the messianic prophecies found in the Tanakh before the coming of their Messiah. This means that the prophecies are meant to be understood and interpreted by the Jews in preparation for the Messiah's arrival. The clear timeline and detailed events provided in these prophecies would serve as a guide for them to recognize and understand the fulfillment of God's plan for their salvation and restoration. By setting these boundaries and focusing on the specific timeframes, Gabriel ensures that the prophecies are accessible and comprehensible to those for whom they were intended.

From a literal perspective, every article of the sanctuary must be restored; the temple would need to be rebuilt along with the city and its walls. The Jews would return from Babylon and reinstate their holy ceremonies, practices, and seven holy festivals. They would restore their way of life as it was before the Babylonian destruction, completing everything in the reverse order in which it was dismantled. There is a definite purpose for dividing these seventy-weeks-of-years into three distinct sections: seven weeks (49 literal years), sixty-two weeks (434 literal years), and the final period of one week (7 literal years). Each section will have its own mission of restoration, and God will ensure everything is in place before the Messiah arrives to be baptized in the Jordan.

Consequently, the final article—the Ark of the Covenant, which was the first article taken away by Jeremiah from the Holy of Holies—would be the last piece of furniture to be restored in the Temple. It would be restored on the first day of the seventieth week of Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, symbolizing the return of the Ark of the Covenant (Messiah) to its rightful place. God did not permit the Babylonians to take away the Ark of the Covenant, and similarly, He did not allow man to take the life of the Messiah. In John 10:17–18, Jesus states:

¹⁷Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. ¹⁸No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Certainly, the restoration encompassed not only the physical items—the temple, the city, the vessels, and so on—but also the spiritual aspects. This included restoring the sabbatical cycles: the weekly Sabbath, the seven-year sabbatical cycle, the Jubilee cycle, and the Great Jubilee cycle, all perfectly timed. God orchestrated this entire restoration within one amazing and interconnected plan, symbolically recreating the beginning of the world. He restored all the physical elements, placed His people back in their holy place, and planned its entire completion in preparation for His arrival. Everything was ready, and God arrived precisely on time. His first day marked the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy. Everything was now restored to how it was in the beginning, with God once again among His people.

God had designed His plan of salvation for all of mankind. It was designed so that salvation would come through the Jews. But Israel did not go to the ends of the earth preaching the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the Gentile nations, but kept Him to themselves. When their Messiah arrived, they rejected Him. But despite this terrible transgression, salvation would still come through the Jews, but He would send His Holy Spirit to each and every one who has placed their faith in the Messiah, Jesus. God's plan of salvation, while designed to be fulfilled through the Jews, extended beyond the immediate timeline. Although Jesus fulfilled His mission as outlined in Daniel 9:24-27 and established His kingdom on earth, its complete realization awaited His return to the Father and His second coming. This means that instead of an immediate and complete fulfillment, God implemented an already, but not yet, plan of salvation that would continue for another 2000 years.

But do not be too concerned; God certainly knew this would happen and constructed His plan of salvation accordingly, aware that His people would reject Him as their Messiah. Remember, since this was His plan from the foundation of the world, we can be assured that the Jews had no choice in this matter. They are not Christ killers; they are not the enemy. Rather, it was (and still is) through their sacrifice that we were brought into His plan of salvation. The Jews were just as blinded to the coming Messiah as Daniel was. Can you possibly understand the price Israel has paid so that we can be saved?

 

Look forward to your comments (or anyone esle's)... Charlie

 

[Dennis1209]

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Dennis, if you do not mind, we might look at our different interpretations one at a time and we can go back and forth and comment on each. The word document I submitted would not pass through... 

Consequently, I would like to respond to the first item you mentioned above regarding the 490 year prophecy.

Here are my thoughts...

24a-70 weeks are determined

24b-for your people and your holy city

Gabriel begins the Lord’s interpretation by telling Daniel that seventy weeks (weeks of years, or 490 years) are determined for his people and his holy city. This introduction sets the stage for the prophecy by establishing a clear timeframe and focus. To understand why God has Gabriel start the prophecy this way, it's helpful to reflect on earlier chapters of Daniel—specifically chapters 2, 7, and 8. In those chapters, the Lord provided dreams and visions in two parts: first the dream sequence, followed by a more detailed interpretation sequence. Therefore, it might be appropriate to approach Chapter 9 in a similar fashion.

In the first two verses (24a and b), Gabriel outlines the external borders or boundaries for this prophecy. He defines the "time" boundary as seventy weeks. Unlike Chapter 2, which describes four physical kingdoms, Chapter 9 reveals three separate yet consecutive time periods of 7, 62, and 1 week, making up the 70 weeks. This structured approach helps Daniel and future readers to understand the prophecy in a clear and organized manner.

Within this period, Daniel will record both the restorative and destructive events / verses that are specifically meant for the Jews. Consequently, when the Jews return to Jerusalem, the visions—the chazon and the mareh, as well as the Chapter 9 prophecy—will no longer be "shut up" or "sealed." These prophecies are intended for the Jews to read, study, and interpret along with the rest of the messianic prophecies found in the Tanakh before the coming of their Messiah. This means that the prophecies are meant to be understood and interpreted by the Jews in preparation for the Messiah's arrival. The clear timeline and detailed events provided in these prophecies would serve as a guide for them to recognize and understand the fulfillment of God's plan for their salvation and restoration. By setting these boundaries and focusing on the specific timeframes, Gabriel ensures that the prophecies are accessible and comprehensible to those for whom they were intended.

From a literal perspective, every article of the sanctuary must be restored; the temple would need to be rebuilt along with the city and its walls. The Jews would return from Babylon and reinstate their holy ceremonies, practices, and seven holy festivals. They would restore their way of life as it was before the Babylonian destruction, completing everything in the reverse order in which it was dismantled. There is a definite purpose for dividing these seventy-weeks-of-years into three distinct sections: seven weeks (49 literal years), sixty-two weeks (434 literal years), and the final period of one week (7 literal years). Each section will have its own mission of restoration, and God will ensure everything is in place before the Messiah arrives to be baptized in the Jordan.

Consequently, the final article—the Ark of the Covenant, which was the first article taken away by Jeremiah from the Holy of Holies—would be the last piece of furniture to be restored in the Temple. It would be restored on the first day of the seventieth week of Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, symbolizing the return of the Ark of the Covenant (Messiah) to its rightful place. God did not permit the Babylonians to take away the Ark of the Covenant, and similarly, He did not allow man to take the life of the Messiah. In John 10:17–18, Jesus states:

¹⁷Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. ¹⁸No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Certainly, the restoration encompassed not only the physical items—the temple, the city, the vessels, and so on—but also the spiritual aspects. This included restoring the sabbatical cycles: the weekly Sabbath, the seven-year sabbatical cycle, the Jubilee cycle, and the Great Jubilee cycle, all perfectly timed. God orchestrated this entire restoration within one amazing and interconnected plan, symbolically recreating the beginning of the world. He restored all the physical elements, placed His people back in their holy place, and planned its entire completion in preparation for His arrival. Everything was ready, and God arrived precisely on time. His first day marked the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy. Everything was now restored to how it was in the beginning, with God once again among His people.

God had designed His plan of salvation for all of mankind. It was designed so that salvation would come through the Jews. But Israel did not go to the ends of the earth preaching the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the Gentile nations, but kept Him to themselves. When their Messiah arrived, they rejected Him. But despite this terrible transgression, salvation would still come through the Jews, but He would send His Holy Spirit to each and every one who has placed their faith in the Messiah, Jesus. God's plan of salvation, while designed to be fulfilled through the Jews, extended beyond the immediate timeline. Although Jesus fulfilled His mission as outlined in Daniel 9:24-27 and established His kingdom on earth, its complete realization awaited His return to the Father and His second coming. This means that instead of an immediate and complete fulfillment, God implemented an already, but not yet, plan of salvation that would continue for another 2000 years.

But do not be too concerned; God certainly knew this would happen and constructed His plan of salvation accordingly, aware that His people would reject Him as their Messiah. Remember, since this was His plan from the foundation of the world, we can be assured that the Jews had no choice in this matter. They are not Christ killers; they are not the enemy. Rather, it was (and still is) through their sacrifice that we were brought into His plan of salvation. The Jews were just as blinded to the coming Messiah as Daniel was. Can you possibly understand the price Israel has paid so that we can be saved?

 

Look forward to your comments (or anyone esle's)... Charlie

 

Thus far, I pretty much agree with you.

I understand the numbers, representations, and meanings. The only disagreement among theologians is by whom and on what date the decree started the countdown. In 539 B. C., King Cyrus allowed the Jews to go home. Or Artaxerxes' first decree in 457 B.C., or Artaxerxes' second decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem in 444 ^B.C. I prefer the latter, as the math lines up perfectly.

Regardless, the Sanhedrin, scribes, and Pharisees (experts) should have quickly figured out the exact day with this information and their 360-day-a-year calendar: Palm Sunday, the time of their visitation, when their Messiah presented himself. Or at least the season of their visitation.  

I do not know why they were not looking for and expecting their Messiah.

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thus far, I pretty much agree with you.

I understand the numbers, representations, and meanings. The only disagreement among theologians is by whom and on what date the decree started the countdown. In 539 B. C., King Cyrus allowed the Jews to go home. Or Artaxerxes' first decree in 457 B.C., or Artaxerxes' second decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem in 444 ^B.C. I prefer the latter, as the math lines up perfectly.

Regardless, the Sanhedrin, scribes, and Pharisees (experts) should have quickly figured out the exact day with this information and their 360-day-a-year calendar: Palm Sunday, the time of their visitation, when their Messiah presented himself. Or at least the season of their visitation.  

I do not know why they were not looking for and expecting their Messiah.

Thanks Dennis and I agree with you that an important point is indeed the starting point of the 4th and final Great Jubilee. Therefore, I would kindly ask you to consider the following in that determination:

 

25a-Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem

Verse 25a provides the start of the clock when this prophetic event will take place. This is one of the "timed" internal borders found within this prophecy. It represents the time of the arrival of the Messiah, the Prince. When a command is given to restore and build Jerusalem, there will be a period of seven weeks (49 prophetic years) and sixty-two weeks (434 prophetic years), for a total of sixty-nine weeks (483 prophetic years). On the first day of the seventieth week, the Messiah would arrive to be baptized in the Jordan. This is the beginning of His ministry, which will last 3.5 years until He is “cut-off” (crucified). So, when was this decree given?

Unfortunately, most commentators are not in agreement on when this decree was given, and there are some who disagree on who is giving it. Some contend the one issuing the decree is Cyrus; consequently, they would start their prophetic clock around 538/7 BC. Others claim it represents a decree issued by Darius (not Darius the Mede but Darius the Persian) in 419 BC, but few have accepted this. But the majority finds that the one who would issue this decree is Artaxerxes, the Persian king who would come to power in 465 BC. However, the controversy would continue since he would issue two separate decrees: Artaxerxes would issue a decree in 457 BC (recorded by Ezra in 7:7-8) and another in 454 BC (recorded by Nehemiah 2:1–17). There is no shortage of supporting work for either of these dates, and each group feels their interpretation should stand. Perhaps there is another approach that will move the needle to one side or the other.

So, we might want to start from the beginning—not the beginning of either of the two dates of Artaxerxes decrees, but before the start of these proposed starting dates.

Daniel's 70 Weeks (490 years) gives a major clue that God determines and measures the redemptive history of Israel in cycles of 70*7=490 years. In particular, it defines the last of these cycles as running from the Ezra Decree to restore Jerusalem (458/7 BC) to Messiah's sacrificial atoning Death and Resurrection (AD 33). Matthew 18:21-22 also implies there is something special about 70*7 = 490: “Peter came and said to Him: “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him: “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to SEVENTY times SEVEN (70 x 7 = 490). From this passage, we see that 490 is the amount of FORGIVENESS. Thus, the cycle of 490 years can be seen as a Forgiveness cycle (70*7 years) as well as a Great Jubilee cycle (10*49 years).

Both concepts agree in emphasizing God’s Mercy and Grace, so that we would expect these Great Forgiveness cycles to start and end with great national ‘Jubilee’ events of forgiveness, release and restoration. We would expect the intervention of God at these times in grace and power, forgiving the past, restoring them and giving them a new start. Thus, this Great Jubilee would seal off the previous 490 years, and then open up the new cycle of 490 years.

THE HISTORY OF ISRAEL - ITS FOUR GREAT JUBILEE CYCLES

These 490-year cycles are indeed confirmed in the history of Israel. Israel had a national Jubilee every 490 years. The outpouring of grace at these times demonstrated God’s forgiveness of the past and His blessing for the future. Thus, God has marked the very structure of time with the revelation of the Jubilee: Forgiveness and full Salvation through the Blood of the Atoning Sacrifice (Leviticus 25). God set apart 4 distinct units of 490 years, and determined these four Great Jubilee cycles to form the backbone for Israel’s history. He fulfilled His purpose through these cycles:

1) Abraham to Exodus,

2) Exodus to Dedication of Solomon’s Temple,

3) From the Dedication of Solomon’s Temple to Artaxerxes decree to restore and build Jerusalem in 457 BC,

4) And finally, the fourth and last Great Jubilee from Artaxerxes decree to the last week in Daniel’s 70 weeks of years prophecy totaling 490 years.

(New Book: Daniel’s 70 Weeks, Appendix 6: Israel’s 490 Year cycles Oxford Bible Church, Pastor Derick Walker).

As a result, Pastor Walker determined there were 560 literal years from the dedication of Solomon’s Temple to Artaxerxes decree in 457 BC. This was comprised of two separate time elements: the ten Jubilee cycles of 49 years (490 years) and the 70 years the Jews were in captivity in Babylon, which would be considered unreckoned years and would not be counted towards the Great Jubilee cycle. Therefore, it would take 560 literal years before God would accept or count the required 490 years to complete the third Great Jubilee sabbatical cycle. Consequently, the end of the third cycle would become the start of the fourth cycle in 457 BC (Artaxerxes’ decree).

There may also be another approach to tackle this contested issue. But it would start with a comment based on the work of a second-century BC Seder, Olam Rabbah, stating the first temple stood for 410 years until its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar in 587/6 BC. If correct, this means Solomon’s Temple would have been dedicated around 996 BC (587/6 plus 410 literal years). Consequently, the third Great Jubilee cycle would still need an additional eighty years (490–410) at the time of the Babylonian destruction before the 490-year period (ten 49-year cycles) was reached to complete the third Great Jubilee cycle.

There was a total of 49 years from 587/6 BC, the year Nebuchadnezzar physically destroyed the Temple, until Cyrus issued his decree allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem in 538/7 BC. These represent the number of years the Jews were not in the land of Israel; the Temple was physically destroyed.

These years would not be counted towards the Jubilee cycle. Thus, the required number of years to complete the third Great Jubilee cycle would still be short by 80 years. However, the Jews would return to their land after Cyrus’ decree in 538/7 BC, and in exactly eighty years, Artaxerxes would issue his decree in 457 BC. This would reconcile the 490-year requirement between the second and third Great Jubilee cycles and begin the fourth and final Great Jubilee sabbatical cycle. Now, Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years (490 literal years) would begin in 457 BC and end in 33 AD.

And to add another layer of support to the 457 BC start date for the fourth and final Great Jubilee cycle, we will find Ezra’s reading of the law in the month of Tishri, 445–444. This would represent the end of the second seven-year sabbatical cycle after their return to Jerusalem. Consequently, if we were to add back two seven-year sabbatical cycles totaling fourteen years, it would bring us back to the 458/7 BC date of the Artaxerxes decree.

 

Look forward to your thoughts, Charlie

 

[JohnD]

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

Looks like one of confusing No parking from here to corner signs…🔚🔜🔙🔛🔝🔜🔀🔂🔀🛂🛑🈹🈺👉🤚👈🤔

[Charlie744]

@Dennis1209 Dennis, thank you for the thumbs up!

 I don’t know if you agree with the response but I appreciate your reading it…

If you want to continue this discussion about Daniel and the different interpretations that are in the community- many of which have not reached a consensus, please bring up another subject within Daniel … What I have found throughout today’s accepted interpretations is the use of a historical approach to interpret Daniel. 
 

I have found that if we were to focus on how the prophecies in Daniel speak to the coming Messiah, we will get a very different message / interpretations. 
 

Look forward to your next topic, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

14 hours ago, JohnD said:

In all seriousness, I believe your interpretations require at least the following:

1) The 70 weeks are not continuous,

2) Jesus did not arrive on the first day of the 70th week to begin His ministry,

3) His ministry did not continue into the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy (how can this be... Scriptures say He would arrive after 7 and 62 weeks - no gap or pause in the prophecy. And Jesus did just that...

4) He was indeed crucified exactly 3.5 years into the last 7 years (midst of the week). If not, when? Was the timing of His crucifixion coincidence to the prophecy?

5) His death removed the need for any further animal sacrifices or offerings (the Levitical ceremonies were fulfilled). Could anyone possibly be able to do away (fulfill) the daily and annual sacred ceremonies (Passover for example) other than God? 

6) Has the Temple, the Sanctuary and the first 4 feast days been done away with by the Messiah.

7) Is it just a coincidence that the Covenant mentioned in chapter 9 (including in the earlier verses in the prayer section) does not refer to the covenant prophecised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Did not Jesus give man this New Covenant and send His holy spirit to man at Pentecost? 

8) Isn't the entire chapter 9 speaking about the coming Messiah and His earthly ministry? If the "restorative" verses in 9:24-25 speak of His earthly ministry, and they do, then why don't the "destructive" verses in 9:26-27 also speak of Him - His crucifixion in the midst of the week, the confirming of the New Covenant, etc,

9) In 9:27, you would also have to believe that "he" is not "He" (Messiah) .... 

10) As a direct result of His people rejecting Him and then crucifying Him, God would become entirely "desolate" from His people for the next 2000 years as punishment. The AOD represents the "abominiation, or the most abominable act that could ever be - crucifixion of God) that would cause complete desolation with His people.

These are such some things to consider that could possibly remove these messianic verses and treat them to some unidentified, scripturally absent individual that will come some 2000 years in the future - by the way, this has all been generated by the evil on - the little horn in Daniel 7 and 8 - the coming papacy. The RCC intentionally generated these gross misinterpretations in the late 16th century in an, unfortunate yet successful attempt to remove the label of the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8 from the papacy. Prior to this, they were interpreted as the little horn.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 6/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Charlie744 said:

He defines the "time" boundary as seventy weeks.

 

On 6/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Charlie744 said:

Chapter 9 reveals three separate yet consecutive time periods of 7, 62, and 1 week, making up the 70 weeks. This structured approach helps Daniel and future readers to understand the prophecy in a clear and organized manner.

The RED BOLD is just not factual my friend.

As per the "Time Boundary", well, not quite, he says there will be 70, 7s and he then gives them unto us in three different prophetic utterances, not ONE (that's why I said not quite). So, the Wall being rebuilt is 7 x 7 that is (look closely) then continued without a break in the Prophetic Utterance, so even though its three prophesies, two are back to back we know by the way Daniel was given them by Gabriel.  LIKE SO:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(Killed for us sinners), but not for himself:

THE ABOVE should be where the verse SPLITS, part of 26 goes with 25 the other part should go with 27 or could be a stand alone verse without the above portion of the verse.

and the people(Romans) of the prince(Anti-Christ/Beast) that shall come(2000 or so years later) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Roman led armies destroy Jerusalem and the Temple), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(The Diaspora).

27 And he(prince that SHALL COME 2000 years later, see above) shall confirm the covenant(Agreement) with many(Israel and Many other Nations see Daniel 11:40-43) for one week(7 Years): and in the midst(1290 which is 30 days before THE EXACT MIDDLE) of the week he shall cause(The A.C. Orders the False Prophet to STOP Jesus Worship by the Jews who have just repented) the sacrifice(Jesus) and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation(until the 1290 days are over at the 2nd coming), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, Gabriel defines 70 - 7s and Three Different Prophesies, NOT ONE CONTINUAL PROPHESY, that comes from men's thinking , not God. Now, as we can see by looking very, very closely, two of the prophesies are BUNCHED TOGETHER signifying its one continual string of years, then we get the jump to the End Time Anti-Christ, which is NOT BUNCHED with the other two at all. 

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by Revelation Man