Should the church apologize to atheists?

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

THIS IS a political argument, not one of faith.   It shouldn't even be considered a valid point of view.

IMO the RCC does not represent the gospel since it's a religion of works rather than faith.  This was established by the fathers of the protestant reformation 500 years ago, but seems to have been forgotten in the rush to make everyone equal EXCEPT those who hold to faith in Jesus Christ.

The lead post and subsequent opinion expressed therein are completely political and questionable in terms of morality.  The only valid question was one of forgiveness, which non-church types seem to think is owed to them but disallowed by them toward the faith community.  

Forgiveness is not understood properly.   According to the LAW of Moses one must ASK for forgiveness before one can be granted forgiveness.  Additionally, one must pledge NOT to repeat those actions (repent) for which one is asking forgiveness.

I read nothing here in terms of a pledge of repentance by non-church types or of ASKING forgiveness.   Therefore it is neither deserved nor properly granted.

Those who have committed offense will continue to be held in derision simply because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE FORGIVEN.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  (Isaiah 6:9-10) 

Yeah I think they'd find it weird anyway and what use is it. Sorry is cheap especially if it's for someone else. Better just say sorry if you did something wrong yourself and then don't do it anymore and pray to God so He can heal our land and pray they get saved.

if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place.
II Chronicles 7:14‭-‬15 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/2ch.7.14-15.NKJV

 

 

[Vine Abider]

21 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Your observations are valid, brother. However, remember that the Lord is perfectly able to do whatever He pleases, and He always accomplishes His good pleasure. This means that organizations, buildings, systems, etc., are meaningless to God. They only matter when they serve His purpose, yes? He doesn't need them. 

The Lord came to me without the "assistance" of religion nor any such organization. Naturally, this influences how I view and understand the Lord. I'm fond of saying, "The Lord is not religious." He isn't. Only men are. This is something I noticed about religion a long time ago: there's no belief in the Lord Himself, only adherence to systems of belief and prescribed ritual. It's like a cargo cult; cargo cultists believe that so long as they carry out ascribed behaviors, they'll receive what they desire. For example, meeting in a building at certain times. Appearing appropriately pious. And so on. If you're familiar with the concept of magical thinking, then you'll get the gist of what a cargo cult is and what a cargo cult does. 

I don't think that you're being too judgmental. All I can say to that is this, that I've witnessed the Lord move in all kinds of places... especially places where murder and suffering are commonplace. This doesn't mean that He doesn't move nor work in a church; only that He moves and works wherever He pleases. Those places don't have to meet with our approval because the Almighty answers to no one. I have witnessed the Lord work in the wilderness. No one has Him "figured out." That's what atheists have a problem with. They have problems with religion. 

Agreed: "Atheists . . . have problems with religion."  I too was saved outside of any religious system, and was immediately shown the folly of it - only a fresh touch with Christ will do!  And admittedly "church" has become closely aligned in people's thinking with religion.  Part of it, in my opinion, is the erroneous translation of "ekklesia" as church, when it clearly means gathering or assembly.  The word "church" actually has more of the physical building meaning, rather than the body of Christ . . . "an enemy has done this."

[AnOrangeCat]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:17 AM, RdJ said:

That's the Dutch evangelical broadcast. It made me think. Shouldn't the church or some pastors or reverends or priests who represent it say sorry to atheists for stuff like this? Our king said sorry to Surinam for the slavery. Atheists don't even ask for money. Just as a recognition.

I personally don't see much that needs to be apologized for. Sometimes institutions get abused and misused. Sometimes bad apples make their way in. IMO it's not up to the church as a whole to apologize over a single incident like that. Leave that to the local body. It's a matter between them and that one family.

[In the Clouds]

The One who is most owed an apology is God.  He gave man freewill and look at how mankind has abused that gift.

[Marilyn C]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:17 PM, RdJ said:

I just saw a tv program from the evangelical broadcast here called Adieu God (Goodbye God) in which they talk with Dutch actors, comedians whatever about why they left God. This was an interview with a filmmaker. He used to be catholic. Was raised catholic, but when he was 12 he had to go to the deacon to help in the church service and he said: you're too late and BAM smacked him in the face hard and he left his costume there and went home and never returned and his parents understood. His mom had to stop his dad who jumped on his bike wanting to smack that deacon. His dad lost his faith, so his mom prayed even more, he said. He was now atheist and sure that God didn't exist and why all the suffering. If he would go to heaven he would smack God in the face. You're allowed to say that on Dutch tv. Oyyyyy. That interviewer stayed really calm and said: Can you forgive? Hmm that's hard but yes if someone wrongs me and says sorry I can forgive them. He said: What if the pope said he was sorry for that smack you got? Oh yes great. What if the pope pronounced your mom holy? He would go to the service with the whole family and he would even serve there if he had to.

That's the Dutch evangelical broadcast. It made me think. Shouldn't the church or some pastors or reverends or priests who represent it say sorry to atheists for stuff like this? Our king said sorry to Surinam for the slavery. Atheists don't even ask for money. Just as a recognition.

So, they think that the Head of the Body should apologize?

[Marathoner]

9 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Agreed: "Atheists . . . have problems with religion."  I too was saved outside of any religious system, and was immediately shown the folly of it - only a fresh touch with Christ will do!  And admittedly "church" has become closely aligned in people's thinking with religion.  Part of it, in my opinion, is the erroneous translation of "ekklesia" as church, when it clearly means gathering or assembly.  The word "church" actually has more of the physical building meaning, rather than the body of Christ . . . "an enemy has done this."

Indeed. I do my best to avoid painting with either a broad or tiny brush, for the truth is simple:

The Body of Christ is found here, there, and everywhere. We can be found in churches, on the street, or even in a desolate wilderness. I avoid asserting that the churches represent the Body, but I enjoy pointing out that we are found in the churches. This reflects the reality of tares growing alongside the wheat, brother. 

I'm not concerned with the nonsense being spouted in places like the one you mentioned. Why? Because the Lord is able to make His own stand regardless of tares and the like. I've witnessed this too many times to have forgotten the truth so easily, for He preserved me during the worst and darkest of times. 

We know what it is, brother: it's faith in the Lord. We have faith in Him! Nothing and no one can overcome the Almighty. 

[RdJ]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So, they think that the Head of the Body should apologize?

That guy? I don't even think that would be good enough and he doesn't believe God exists. He blames God for the suffering in the world, which is absurd. But he could blame me for not praying enough for the lost. Which he won't do and a sorry for that would be weird, so I said sorry to God and prayed for the lost. 

You can blame people like that for having such a big mouth, but had that church brought him to God as a kid he would now not have talked like that. So the rest of the church now has to fix that and pray that the country gets saved.

And I was thinking, he said he wanted to hit God in the face, they already did that. Jesus is God. 

Edited June 8, 2024 by RdJ

[Who me]

On 6/6/2024 at 4:40 PM, RdJ said:

It's an outreach to him.

They also had another program with VIPs and one guy, an athlete, was very interested and he could ask questions to different groups of christians. Later he got saved. That was funny. He said: Why can't they come up with one story? This one says this. That one says that. Why don't you just come together and say: hey this is the story. That would be so much easier.

 

And just how did they explain the love of Jesus to him?

 

[RdJ]

22 minutes ago, Who me said:

 

And just how did they explain the love of Jesus to him?

 

He didn't really, but he said that's not God.

I was reading an article from a guy who worked for that broadcast in the 90s. He said it has become horrible. Some who work there go to the gay pride because Jesus loves gays and you don't want them to see you as a bigot. I hadn't watched it in ages. I didn't know it had become so bad.

[RdJ]

Maybe the Dutch evangelical broadcast has to apologize to atheists for broadcasting these horrible programs.