Should abortion be banned??

[da_man1974]

This is an interesting topic for sure.  But I think it comes back to when life begins.  When is it ok for us to take another life.  If we are to allow abortion we are still taking another life.  Just because the child is unborn doesn't mean its no less important to God.  If that were the case when does that choice end.  Say a women decides to deliver a rape baby but a week afterwards she regrets it.  Should she be able to take the baby's life then?

 

[CaptWalker]

Well however you look at she's not the one actually taking it's life but I suppose God would consider her to be an equal accomplice in the act? But since I'm not a woman and so am not going to pass any such judgement when I will never experience all the emotions they must be going through in having to decide what to do which will impact the rest of there life, even if they have the baby when they never really wanted to.

But that's really besides the point, which my original one being more about whether all unborn babies go back to the Father that created them. And for that matter any child that has not reached that age of accountability required to make rational decisions that they then would be held responsible for.

Because I've done and said some pretty bad things when I wasn't even 10 years old that now I can only wonder just WTH was I thinking?!

But I just don't see how God would judge such a child as that to hell when they have not ever heard or been able to comprehend the true Gospel message, and very well could have become born again later in life. But I know the Bible doesn't say either way but maybe that's just because the answer is so obvious??

Edited August 22, 2024 by CaptWalker
Too early in the morning🥴

[Tristen]

21 hours ago, Jayne said:

I'm just asking.  I hate abortion for 95% of the time, too. 

I’d expect that “abortion” due to rape would be a much lower percentage of “abortions”, than 5%.

Nevertheless, the fact that we can point to extreme and difficult examples doesn’t modify the immorality of murdering a child. It simply amplifies the heinous, selfish, evil nature of rape.

 

21 hours ago, Jayne said:

What ARE those "ongoing effects" on the mother of having to carry the child of her rapist?

Stemming from the torturous nature of the rape itself, would be the potential mental anguish of having to carry the rapist’s child for 9 months, alongside the additional complication that the newborn is also the child of the rape victim - i.e. there would be complications associated with the mother being conflicted - bonding with her own child despite the role of the father. There are also a range of potential, long-lasting medical (physical) complications associated with carrying a child and giving birth – i.e. perpetual reminders of the rape.

 

21 hours ago, Jayne said:

How would you force a 12 year old to bear a child?  A 9 year old?  I ask about the 9 year old because one of the cases of girls that young that I read about a few years ago was in South America.  She, at 9, was raped and impregnated by her uncle.

Her mother wanted to terminate the unborn baby.  Very early.  The Catholic Church forbade them to do so.  I don't know if she survived the pregnancy or what.  

So if a little child is raped and gets pregnant, I guess what I am asking is who gets to force her to have the baby?

Now I am not saying that all rapes should end in abortion.   I'm just saying that this is something that bothers me GREATLY.

Who gets to tell the 9, 10, 11, 12 year old child who has been vilely raped that she must carry the baby.

I have several thoughts:

I'd firstly suggest that no-one is "forcing" the "little child" to do anything. I think that is an emotive mischaracterization of the situation. Parents make decisions for their children at those ages. The children are not considered emotionally mature enough to comprehend the implications of what has happened/is happening to them. If the child's guardians are careful, they can mitigate the damage caused to the child arising from the awful situation. That is, given the right treatment and approach, a child will more easily recover from such a trauma, then would an adult. A child could be nursed and comforted through the situation, or otherwise be further traumatized - depending on how her parents react.
- Which is to say that, what is being proposed is a prohibition on the parent of a child rape victim organizing the murder of their unborn grandchild. That is, an alternate solution to murdering the baby might be to guide the young mother through the process of carrying the child to term in a supportive manner - allowing the baby to live and the mother to heal.

As previously stated, the rare extreme argument is not a valid basis for reaching moral conclusions. In this rare circumstance, children are entirely reliant on their parent's emotional support for proper mental calibration - and will follow their parent's lead.

Furthermore, generally speaking, it is fortunate that their are biological age limitations on who can get pregnant - which means the circumstance of younger girls getting pregnant is very rare.

I haven't looked into it, but I'd also wonder if carrying a pregnancy at such a young age might fall into the category of placing the life of the young mother in imminent peril. And thus, the emotive appeal to a "child rape" is unnecessary.

 

 

[christsavedme]

On 8/20/2024 at 5:18 AM, CaptWalker said:

I know this has been asked before on this forum but given what is going on now with the elections coming up and what most Christians believe as being Gospel truth/Trump.... I just needed to ask it.

And that is basically this...if all unborn/innocent infants do go to heaven then should all reasons/circumstances for abortion be banned, even for a preteen girl who was raped, or a woman whos life will be endangered by giving birth?

(Ecclesiastes-6:3)

It is true that the Church teaches that unborn infants are precious in the eyes of God and deserving of our protection, but we must also consider the tragic circumstances that may lead a woman to consider abortion. The case of a preteen girl who has been raped, or a woman whose life is endangered by pregnancy, are heartbreaking examples of the brokenness of our world.

The Church must be a field hospital, where the wounded and the vulnerable are cared for with mercy and compassion. In these situations, we must prioritize the well-being and safety of the woman, while also acknowledging the inherent dignity of the unborn child.

This is not a simplistic either-or proposition. Rather, it is a both-and approach, where we strive to protect the unborn while also supporting and accompanying women in crisis. This may involve providing access to healthcare, counseling, and social services that empower women to make informed choices about their lives and their bodies.

Let us not forget the wisdom of Ecclesiastes, which reminds us that there is a time for everything under heaven. In this moment, let us choose compassion, empathy, and understanding, rather than rigid ideology or judgment. May we be guided by the Spirit of God, who is always merciful, always just, and always loving.

[Jayne]

2 hours ago, Tristen said:

Stemming from the torturous nature of the rape itself, would be the potential mental anguish of having to carry the rapist’s child for 9 months, alongside the additional complication that the newborn is also the child of the rape victim - i.e. there would be complications associated with the mother being conflicted - bonding with her own child despite the role of the father. There are also a range of potential, long-lasting medical (physical) complications associated with carrying a child and giving birth – i.e. perpetual reminders of the rape.

 

 

I'd firstly suggest that no-one is "forcing" the "little child" to do anything. I think that is an emotive mischaracterization of the situation. Parents make decisions for their children at those ages. The children are not considered emotionally mature enough to comprehend the implications of what has happened/is happening to them. If the child's guardians are careful, they can mitigate the damage caused to the child arising from the awful situation. That is, given the right treatment and approach, a child will more easily recover from such a trauma, then would an adult. A child could be nursed and comforted through the situation, or otherwise be further traumatized - depending on how her parents react.
- Which is to say that, what is being proposed is a prohibition on the parent of a child rape victim organizing the murder of their unborn grandchild. That is, an alternate solution to murdering the baby might be to guide the young mother through the process of carrying the child to term in a supportive manner - allowing the baby to live and the mother to heal.

[1]  Your first paragraph.  That is exactly what I needed you to say and to consider.

[2] Your second paragraph.  Sadly, we are in disagreement.  You think me saying that forcing little girls as young as nine to bear the child of her rapist is an "emotive mischaracterization"?  You think she doesn't understand the implications of what has happened to her?  

This is a sensitive and ugly topic - no matter one's opinion.  

[Tristen]

6 hours ago, Jayne said:

[1]  Your first paragraph.  That is exactly what I needed you to say and to consider.

Of course. Being against "abortion" in no way minimizes the atrocity of rape. To assume such is not fair-minded.

As a matter of logical, moral consistency, it simply does not track that murdering an unborn child is a valid solution to the rape of the mother. That is simply compounding evil with evil.

 

7 hours ago, Jayne said:

[2] Your second paragraph.  Sadly, we are in disagreement.  You think me saying that forcing little girls as young as nine to bear the child of her rapist is an "emotive mischaracterization"?  You think she doesn't understand the implications of what has happened to her?  

At that young age, children look to parents to calibrate their responses. And as such, the correct response from the parents could serve to guide the child into a fuller mental/emotional/psychological recovery - i.e. to overcome the mental impacts of the rape - such that it is not an enduring, defining event in the child's life and psyche.

Regarding being "forced" - parents make decisions for their children at those young ages. And children look to their parents to do so. Whereas your initial characterization paints the issue as some adult/government organization personally bullying the child. I don't think that is fair.

 

[Jayne]

7 minutes ago, Tristen said:

At that young age, children look to parents to calibrate their responses. And as such, the correct response from the parents could serve to guide the child into a fuller mental/emotional/psychological recovery - i.e. to overcome the mental impacts of the rape - such that it is not an enduring, defining event in the child's life and psyche.

Regarding being "forced" - parents make decisions for their children at those young ages. And children look to their parents to do so. Whereas your initial characterization paints the issue as some adult/government organization personally bullying the child. I don't think that is fair.

I'm not talking about bullying anyone.

And I haven't brought up any "government organization."

Let's say you have a 10-year-old daughter.  She got a bad rash on her back, chest, and arms.  The doctor in the ER tells you that she has syphilis.  You are in shock.  Your wife is in shock.  The attending nurse says that your daughter tearfully confessed that her uncle raped her a month ago and she was too, too scared to tell.

Then the doctor tells you that she is pregnant.

After you pick yourself up off of the floor, how are you going to convince her that you and her mother are going to insist that she have the baby.  I know it's not a simple conversation.

[Tristen]

7 hours ago, Jayne said:

Let's say you have a 10-year-old daughter.  She got a bad rash on her back, chest, and arms.  The doctor in the ER tells you that she has syphilis.  You are in shock.  Your wife is in shock.  The attending nurse says that your daughter tearfully confessed that her uncle raped her a month ago and she was too, too scared to tell.

Then the doctor tells you that she is pregnant.

After you pick yourself up off of the floor, how are you going to convince her that you and her mother are going to insist that she have the baby.  I know it's not a simple conversation.

Yes - I get it. Rape is a monstrous, eminently despicable event - whose trauma is only compounded by a resulting pregnancy. I fully understand the torturous depth of the evil perpetrated on the victim - and the resulting psychological turmoil. The fact that you think you need to spell-out the scenario indicates that you think I am underplaying the rape aspect of the issue. That is not a fair assumption on your part.

However, I would posit that you are the one who has not fully considered how truly evil it is to murder a baby - born or unborn (since there is no objective moral difference).

 

Furthermore, I don't have to "convince" anyone of anything. As the parent, I am choosing for my "10-year-old daughter"- in our family we do not murder babies. There is no "abortion" choice to be considered. The remaining question to be considered is: "Given that we are having a baby, how do we move forward in a manner that is best for young mother and her unborn child?". 

You appear to be of the opinion that there is no possible positive outcome in choosing to keep the baby. I 100% disagree. A young girl can be counselled into recovery from a rape - and subsequently raise her child in a loving environment (or alternatively, the family could choose to adopt-out the child after the birth).

 

 

[other one]

15 hours ago, Jayne said:

I'm not talking about bullying anyone.

And I haven't brought up any "government organization."

Let's say you have a 10-year-old daughter.  She got a bad rash on her back, chest, and arms.  The doctor in the ER tells you that she has syphilis.  You are in shock.  Your wife is in shock.  The attending nurse says that your daughter tearfully confessed that her uncle raped her a month ago and she was too, too scared to tell.

Then the doctor tells you that she is pregnant.

After you pick yourself up off of the floor, how are you going to convince her that you and her mother are going to insist that she have the baby.  I know it's not a simple conversation.

What did the baby do that deserves death?   I know a couple of ladies that this happened to them (minus the Syphilis) at the age of 12 and 13.   They both kept the babies and raised them to adulthood with the help of friends and family.   The secret to the disaster is the friends and family part, for none of us cast shame on her.   A third cousin at the age of 14 just got herself pregnant, and she kept the baby and they kind of grew up together as her parents and extended family showed love and understanding.  Both became mentally healthy adults and have helped others because of their experiences.    I'm not saying it was easy, but it made stronger and more stable adults than a lot of the airheads I grew up with.

I personally haven't asked them directly, but I'd be more than shocked if they would say that should have aborted.

[Jayne]

45 minutes ago, other one said:

What did the baby do that deserves death?   I know a couple of ladies that this happened to them (minus the Syphilis) at the age of 12 and 13.   They both kept the babies and raised them to adulthood with the help of friends and family.   The secret to the disaster is the friends and family part, for none of us cast shame on her.   A third cousin at the age of 14 just got herself pregnant, and she kept the baby and they kind of grew up together as her parents and extended family showed love and understanding.  Both became mentally healthy adults and have helped others because of their experiences.    I'm not saying it was easy, but it made stronger and more stable adults than a lot of the airheads I grew up with.

I personally haven't asked them directly, but I'd be more than shocked if they would say that should have aborted.

I don't disagree.  I understand what you are saying about the baby in the womb receiving mercy.  And it's always a relief to hear from an adult rape victim who chose to keep her baby.  And how that situation turned out OK.

I just want to know how are parents going to explain to that 10-year-old or 14-year-old rape victim that she unmercifully gets no choice of her own in the matter.  She has NO say.

I just want to know what the literal words are.  This isn't like telling them that they cannot have a boyfriend or that they must clean their room.

I'm just deeply interested in what the conversation looks like. How do you tell a very, very young rape victim that they are having a baby and they have no choice about it.