The five stages of the person

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, douggg said:

Marilyn,

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Do you think a muslim could ever be embraced by the Jews as their King of Israel ?    In order to become the Antichrist ?

Israel ONLY accepts the Peace Treaty, it does not accept anyone as King. 

Jesus just said they would accept this other person when he came in his own name. Nothing there of accepting the A/C as their king. 

[missmuffet]

If only the time line worked out the way you think it willI guess you will find out eventually.

[douggg]

51 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Israel ONLY accepts the Peace Treaty, it does not accept anyone as King. 

Jesus just said they would accept this other person when he came in his own name. Nothing there of accepting the A/C as their king. 

Hi Marilyn, the covenant to be confirmed in Daniel 9:27 is the Mt. Sinai covenant which has the 7 years cycle attached to it by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

When Jesus came in the name of the Lord, it was acknowledged by his followers as associated with being the king of Israel.

John 12:

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2024 by douggg

[Marilyn C]

27 minutes ago, douggg said:

Hi Marilyn, the covenant to be confirmed in Daniel 9:27 is the Mt. Sinai covenant which has the 7 years cycle attached to it by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

When Jesus came in the name of the Lord, it was acknowledged by his followers as associated with being the king of Israel.

John 12:

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

 

Hi daouggg,

The covenant in Deut. 31: 9 - 13 is for Israel and God, NOT between Israel and another person, (& group). 

And when Jesus went up to the Feast of Passover (John 12: 1) the people cried `King of Israel,` however the elders of Israel did not. There is no mention of Israel accepting any but Jesus as their King. (Zech. 12: 10   14: 17)

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi daouggg,

The covenant in Deut. 31: 9 - 13 is for Israel and God, NOT between Israel and another person, (& group). 

And when Jesus went up to the Feast of Passover (John 12: 1) the people cried `King of Israel,` however the elders of Israel did not. There is no mention of Israel accepting any but Jesus as their King. (Zech. 12: 10   14: 17)

Right, the covenant in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 is referring to the Mt Sinai covenant.   The Antichrist, as the thought to be messiah by the Jews, will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant with "many", i.e. the large Jewish population, for 7 years.   

The confirmation process will be a big speech from the temple mount - that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

----------------------------------------------------

Second point....

In John 12:12, I agree it was not the elders (the religious leaders) that hailed Jesus as the king of Israel that comes in the name of the Lord.

But the verse does show that the messiah (Christ, the greek term for Messiah, John 4:25) is expected to be the king of Israel.

And also that even the religious leaders (that opposed Jesus) acknowledged the same, although they said it in mocking manner in Mark 15:32 that the messiah is expected to be the king of Israel.

Something that a muslim can never be.

 

Mark 15:

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2024 by douggg

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Right, the covenant in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 is referring to the Mt Sinai covenant.   The Antichrist, as the thought to be messiah by the Jews, will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant with "many", i.e. the large Jewish population, for 7 years.   

The confirmation process will be a big speech from the temple mount - that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

----------------------------------------------------

Second point....

In John 12:12, I agree it was not the elders (the religious leaders) that hailed Jesus as the king of Israel that comes in the name of the Lord.

But the verse does show that the messiah (Christ, the greek term for Messiah, John 4:25) is expected to be the king of Israel.

And also that even the religious leaders (that opposed Jesus) acknowledged the same, although they said it in mocking manner in Mark 15:32 that the messiah is expected to be the king of Israel.

Something that a muslim can never be.

 

Mark 15:

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 

 

 

 

1. No scriptures saying that a Jew will be the last Gentile Global leader. (By current world views `pro-Palestinian, ` a Jew would certainly not be accepted.)

2. The Elders of Israel had to accept Jesus as King, not just the people. God gave them an opportunity when they visited Paul. (Acts 28: 17 - 29)

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

1. No scriptures saying that a Jew will be the last Gentile Global leader. (By current world views `pro-Palestinian, ` a Jew would certainly not be accepted.)

2. The Elders of Israel had to accept Jesus as King, not just the people. God gave them an opportunity when they visited Paul. (Acts 28: 17 - 29)

 

Marilyn,  I don't know what you mean by "Gentile" Global leader, nor where you are getting that from.

The person who becomes the Antichrist will be a Jew, but in his bloodline he will also be descended from the Julio-Claudians.

As the little horn, he will be the 7th king of the Julio-Claudian bloodline to be the leader of the Roman Empire - manifested in the end times as the EU.

When he becomes the beast-king, the ten EU kings will hand their kingdom over to him. Revelation 17:17.    To be the dictator of the EU.   The 8th king of the Julio-Claudian bloodline.   Revelation 17:10-11.

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/31/2024 at 5:37 PM, douggg said:

Shalom, @douggg.

There are a few problems with your scenario.

First, the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 is already half over. The first half of the week was when the Lord was here, offering the Kingdom to His tribe, the actual Jews, the children of Judah.

Just as David did for the first 7+ years of his reign, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was first to be King of His own tribe. Then, after the 7 years, He would extend His reign to all the tribes of Israel.

In David's case, the northern tribes came to HIM, seeking to be a united Kingdom with ONE king! In Yeeshuwa`s case, He will CALL them home from wherever they currently exist! He will make it possible to know who are the children of Israel, and order the nations of the earth to send them home!

That being said, the GAP between the two halves of the 70th week is the "tribulation period," not the week itself. THAT is the time that Yeeshuwa` HIMSELF left them "DESOLATE!" (We're still IN this "tribulation period.")

 

Second, the word "antichrist" is an ATTITUDE, a POSITION, a STANCE anyone takes AGAINST the LORD God's Messiah, not a person. The person identified to the Thessalonians and in the book of Revelation is the "BEAST." The phrase "man of sin" or "lawless one" or "wicked [one]" is one who is also against God's Torah or God's Instruction found in His LAW! It's not just any "law" he's against; he is specifically "against GOD'S Law!" That's what "ἀνομία" or "anomia" means in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 and 8. And, Yochanan ("John") notes it had already been seen in the First Century:

1 John 4:3 (KJV)

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit (attitude) of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

That may seem to be just a wrong-word choice, but it influences how one uses the word because people have grown accustomed to using the word "antichrist" for a particular person.

 

Third, and even most importantly, Daniel 9:26-27 is misaaplied to the Beast when it is actually predicting the results of the First Coming of the Messiah.

It's not talking about "the prince that shall come"; it's talking about the "Messiah" found in verse 26! Here's the verses again (Gavriy-'Eel or Gabriel doing the talking):

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 ... "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Note that in English, "of the prince" is a prepositional phrase and "that shall come" is an identifying clause attached to "prince." The prepositional phrase using the preposition "of" is an adjectival phrase identifying the "PEOPLE" and is thus not a primary part of the sentence! I.e., it's not about the "prince"; it's about the "people!"

In Hebrew, the phrase is found in a noun construct chain:

'Hebrew expresses the “of” (possessive) relationship between two nouns by what is called the construct chain. This grammatical relationship is created by placing two or more nouns side by side. The first of the two nouns in the construct chain is called the construct noun and is said to be in the construct state.' - Wikipedia

In this particular case, the "noun construct chain" is "עַם נָגִיד" (transliterated as "`am naagiyd "), with "naagiyd," meaning "prince," in the lesser position as a modifier of "`am," meaning a "people." As such, "naagiyd" is also not the primary focus of the sentence.

So, when one comes to the verbs that have no antecedent in verse 27, the antecedent must be seen in the noun that has significance in the sentence, going back to verse 26, and the last masculine, singular noun is "מָשִׁיחַ" or "Maashiyach" or "Messiah!" Thus, the antecedent of the verbs in verse 27 is the "Messiah!"

So, let's replace the "he" in verse 27 with that word:

26 ... "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week Messiah shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations Messiah shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

And, since we are now in the position of seeing these verbs fulfilled from our perspective, since they were fulfilled is His FIRST Coming, we can find these fulfilled in the NT:

First, the "covenant" mentioned is the DAVIDIC Covenant, first given to Miryam ("Mary") in Luke 1:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. ..."

And, just like His ancestor, Yeeshuwa` first offered the Kingdom to His own tribe, Judah, or the Jews:

Luke 4:16-27 (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias (Greek: "Ἠσαΐου" [Eesaiou] =  Hebrew: "יְשַׁעְיָהוּ" [Ysha`yaahuw] = English: "Isaiah"). And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 "The Spirit of the LORD [is] upon me, because he (the LORD) hath anointed me (מָשַׁח יְהוָה אֹתִי) to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the LORD (To herald the year of delight for-YHWH). ..." (Isaiah 61:1-2a)

20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them,

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said,

"Is not this Joseph's son?"

23 And he said unto them,

"Ye will surely say unto me this proverb,

"'Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.'"

24 And he said,

"Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian."

So, like David, He was to be the King of the Jews for 7 years and then be promoted to King of Israel after that, but half-way through the 7 years (the 3.5 years of His offer of the Kingdom), they rejected God's Anointed One and crucified Him instead! He was "cut off, but not for Himself." He had no sin of His own, but could die for His own people.

Second, we are told in the book of Hebrews, 

Hebrews 10:1-18 (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can NEVER with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year. 4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,

"Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God."

8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]"; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 "'This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days,' saith the LORD, 'I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.'"

18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] NO MORE OFFERING FOR SIN.

This is the fulfillment of "in the midst of the week Messiah shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." While the priests still sacrificed, until the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., those sacrifices had no more efficacy!

Third, for the part "for the overspreading of abominations Messiah shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" was fulfilled when He pronounced them "desolate" for the abominations of the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23! He concludes,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,

"'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the LORD.'"

And this means they wouldn't see Him again until they could WELCOME Him back as YHWH'S Messiah!

The last part of Daniel 9:27 is where we are right now: "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Right now, THEY are the "desolate" - those who have been pronounced "desolate" by the Messiah - and the tribulation, "that determined," is being poured upon them. BUT, there SHALL be a "consummation" - an "END" - to that tribulation when the Messiah returns:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He will pick up where He left off and will once again offer the Kingdom to the Jews, who will accept Him this time, as their King, or rather, as GOD'S King for them!

So, the "tribulation" is MUCH LONGER than a mere 7 years! The two halves of the seventieth week are like BOOKENDS to the tribulation! And, we're currently IN the "great tribulation" that has lasted almost 2,000 years!

[douggg]

I added a few notations to the chart.   Including the bible references to the "time of the end".

 

[douggg]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, the "tribulation" is MUCH LONGER than a mere 7 years! The two halves of the seventieth week are like BOOKENDS to the tribulation! And, we're currently IN the "great tribulation" that has lasted almost 2,000 years!

The great tribulation that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:15-21 begins when the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet is setup in the time of the end.

In Daniel 12:12, the abomination of desolation will be setup 1335 days before Jesus returns.

1290 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup is the sign of the Son of man in heaven (Matthew 24:29-30a), which will be the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:12-16.

We are living in the "time of the end".   But the abomination of desolation has not yet been setup.    So the great tribulation has not begun yet.