Differences between Rapture and 2nd Coming

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, EddieM said:

The recognized scholar of post trib is Bob Gundry. He holds that you must have believers in their natural bodies entering the Millennium. Douglas Moo is also a spokesman scholar for post trib who holds that there will be birth and death in the Millennium.

Appeal to authority. Logical fallacy. 

20 hours ago, EddieM said:

OT believers are resurrected at the end of Daniel's 70th week according to Dan 12.13.

Of course. Same as in Rev 20 at the GWT. That judgment isn't only to throw people in the lake of fire.

20 hours ago, EddieM said:

I mean no disrespect but I wonder how much of the Post Trib position you actually understand. You are making comments that seem to be non-Post Trib. Believers being resurrected at the GWT is Post Mill.

It's more a prewrath position, if there must be a label. Really all I do is read, try my best to listen, then repeat scripture. 

Believers being resurrected for the final judgement is scriptural. It's not part of some pastoral fantasy or religious doctrine. 

20 hours ago, EddieM said:

Your previous post in not a defense of the post trib position, it is just a bunch of assertions.

As is everyone's take on the prophetic scriptures. I have seen opposing camps interpret the same verse or passage wildly differently. 

However, this seems to be devolving into something less than a search for truth. I may have to bow out.

20 hours ago, EddieM said:

In case I missed it, would you answer this question:

Do ONLY glorified believers enter the Millennium?

Asked and answered. My answer will not change unless some new scriptural evidence appears of which I have been previously unaware. 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/6/2024 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

Scripture doesn't refute, deny, or otherwise cancel people in natural bodies living in the millennial kingdom. I think Zech 14 points this out quite nicely; there will be people living in the Millennial Kingdom. 

I never claimed to have the position 'believers enter the Millennial kingdom in their natural bodies'. I see that as another claim of pretrib that doesn't follow from any evidence about who lives and reigns with Jesus and when. 

My position is: Only those who died during the GT, and those who are alive when Jesus returns, are resurrected and translated at the 2nd coming. Any other believer from Adam to prior to the start of the martyrdom in GT waits till the 1000 years are complete and only then is resurrected to appear before the GWT. 

This 'natural body' argument appears to be logically fallacious, a strawman. 

You're claiming a post trib scenario where believers enter the Millennial kingdom in the natural, non translated state of being. I have never heard any post trib/prewrath advocate make that claim. 

Pretrib gets it all wrong here in any case. There is no group of the vast size required by the pretrib position depicted in heaven any where in all scripture. 

The only group pictured about the throne came out from within GT, and the only group living and reigning with Jesus is the group that faced the beast and refused his power and authority. 

Shalom, @Diaste.

It doesn't do any good at all to ignore the REST of the Scriptures that speak to this "Thousand Years" period. One cannot legitimately ignore passages like 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 or Psalm 2 or Isaiah 61-65 or Ezekiel 40-48! ALL of these passages speak to this Kingdom Age that merely BEGINS with the first 1,000 years while haSatan is locked away in the bottomless pit!

When one understands that the Great Tribulation is NOT a "7-year period" but is actually a MUCH longer period sandwiched BETWEEN the two halves of that "7-year period," then one will understand that there cannot BE a "pretribulational rapture" or even a "mid-tribulational (pre-wrath) rapture!" We have only to look for a POST-tribulational rapture.

And this is NOT a rapture "to Heaven!" It is a rapture THROUGH the heavens to arrive in Israel where our Lord Yeeshuwa` shall be going, and IN A HURRY!

One must first understand what His Second Coming will accomplish! First, let's COMPLETE the passage He began to quote, recorded in Luke 4:

Isaiah 61:1-2a, 2b-11 (KJV)

1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien [shall be] your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: [men] shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame [ye shall have] double; and [for] confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them."

8 "For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they [are] the seed [which] the LORD hath blessed."

10 "I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations."

and within the SAME PROPHECY we continue to read:

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth!"

And, one mustn't forget Y'chezk'eel's prophecy:

Ezekiel 37:1-28 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which [was] full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, [there were] very many in the open valley; and, lo, [they were] very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but [there was] no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it]," saith the LORD.'"

15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, 'For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions': then take another stick, and write upon it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions': 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, 'Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these?' 19 Say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand."'

20 "And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever."'

26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

ALL of this describes the period of God's Kingdom over which His Messiah - His Anointed One to be Israel's King - His CHOICE for Israel's King - will reign. And, this is just the BEGINNING of His reign! Those who will be "kings" with the Messiah won't just be kings of nations; they will also fill the roles of kings of territories, of regions within countries (like our states), and kings even of cities, and towns, and villages, that we call "mayors." We will have a HIERARCHY of reigning over the world as His Kingdom grows. It will be much like the hierarchy of judges that Moses established in Israel in Exodus 18, as advised by his father-in-law, Yitrow ("Jethro"), the priest of Midian.

[JoeCanada]

11 hours ago, EddieM said:

Just so you know where I am coming from, I am a Dispensationalist.

I figured as much. I think anyone who staunchly believes in a pre-trib rapture is also a believer in dispensationalism.

I believe that the Scriptures teach that God has worked with both Israel and the Church at the same time during the Church age in the past (e.g. God judged Israel in AD 70 which was during the Church age), at the present (Paul says that he is making Israel jealous by saving Gentiles), and will continue to work with both groups right up to the return of Jesus during Daniel’s 70th week (Revelation 7 is a beautiful picture of this portraying both groups being delivered just before the day of the Lord’s wrath).

11 hours ago, EddieM said:

For example, in the Book of Daniel, 490 years are determined for the nation of Israel, not the Church

The church wasn't around yet.

 

11 hours ago, EddieM said:

But the whole book of Revelation is to be studied by the Church and take the parts that are directed toward the Church and those directed toward Israel and interpret them accordingly.

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."... Rev 1:2

 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches"...Rev 22:16

"These things" .... they are at the beginning of Rev and at the end of Rev.

ALL THESE THINGS WRITTEN are for the church.

I don't see anywhere in the entire BofR (or the bible for that matter) that tells us to "pick and choose" if it's for us or for them. 

11 hours ago, EddieM said:

You forgot to respond to my sentence about the Church is exempt from the TIME of the Tribulation (The final 7 years of the Jewish Dispensation) as recorded in Rev 3.10

You are assuming that the "hour of trial" is the "time of tribulation".

The "hour of trial" that is coming on the whole world is not tribulation. 

It is the wrath of God. Only the wrath of God is global in its scope.

Tribulation is for the Jews and for Christians. Rev 12:13-17

11 hours ago, EddieM said:

As I mentioned earlier, the Church is seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and has made herself ready in heaven before the 2nd Coming

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready"...Rev 19:7

[EddieM]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

22 hours ago, EddieM said:

`The recognized scholar of post trib is Bob Gundry. He holds that you must have believers in their natural bodies entering the Millennium. Douglas Moo is also a spokesman scholar for post trib who holds that there will be birth and death in the Millennium.

Appeal to authority. Logical fallacy. 

Quoting from confirmed scholars is a legitimate reply. By scholar I mean someone who has presented their views to the scholarly community (which will include those who do not hold to the teachings of the author)  and have been recognized by other scholars as being within the scholarly ranks.

I probably should have quoted from them but didn't take the time. Sorry.

 

22 hours ago, EddieM said:

OT believers are resurrected at the end of Daniel's 70th week according to Dan 12.13.

Of course. Same as in Rev 20 at the GWT. That judgment isn't only to throw people in the lake of fire.

I don't believe that believers are mentioned as being judged at the GWT. I haven't studied that enough to confirm this, but it is widely held.

Can you shed some light on this?

 

22 hours ago, EddieM said:

I mean no disrespect but I wonder how much of the Post Trib position you actually understand. You are making comments that seem to be non-Post Trib. Believers being resurrected at the GWT is Post Mill.

It's more a prewrath position, if there must be a label. Really all I do is read, try my best to listen, then repeat scripture. 

Believers being resurrected for the final judgement is scriptural. It's not part of some pastoral fantasy or religious doctrine. 

Thank you for that clarification.

22 hours ago, EddieM said:

Your previous post in not a defense of the post trib position, it is just a bunch of assertions.

As is everyone's take on the prophetic scriptures. I have seen opposing camps interpret the same verse or passage wildly differently. 

We interpret passages differently because we have a different method of interpretation. I don't think the interpretation of scriptures is that difficult. Within the historical, literal, grammatical method of interpretation, you can arrive at the truth of what is said. The things God has revealed are for us to know (Deut 29.29). Christ spoke with authority, not like the scribes and Pharisees. Christ is one of our examples to emulate.

However, this seems to be devolving into something less than a search for truth. I may have to bow out.

22 hours ago, EddieM said:

In case I missed it, would you answer this question:

Do ONLY glorified believers enter the Millennium?

Asked and answered. My answer will not change unless some new scriptural evidence appears of which I have been previously unaware. 

If you are a pre-wrath believer then I know your answer, .Sorry if I didn't pick up on your answer earlier.

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 11/2/2024 at 2:35 PM, EddieM said:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air    TRUE
2. All believers are translated into new bodies    TRUE
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House    TRUE
4. There is no judgment on the earth     JUDGMENT BEGINS THEN
5. The Church will be in Heaven    WILL BE TAKEN THERE
6. It is an imminent occurrence    FALSE
7. There are no signs preceding it    FALSE
8. It affects believers only     FALSE: BOTH EVIL AND RIGHTEOUS RAISED
9. It is a time of joy     FOR THE ELECT; ALL OTHERS NOT
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath   THE WRATH IMMEDIATELY BEGINS
11. No mention of Satan     TRUE
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next    TRUE
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb     IT BEGINS IT
14. Only Christ's own will see him    COMPLETELY UNTRUE (REV. 1:7 ETC.)
15. The Tribulation begins     THE TRIBULATION HAS JUST ENDED

See my other post about the difference between the Parousia and the "Second Coming" here:

 

[EddieM]

27 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air    TRUE
2. All believers are translated into new bodies    TRUE
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House    TRUE
4. There is no judgment on the earth     JUDGMENT BEGINS THEN

This refers to no judgment by God on the earth.

5. The Church will be in Heaven    WILL BE TAKEN THERE
6. It is an imminent occurrence    FALSE

There are no signs that precede the Rapture. Many signs for the 2nd Coming.

7. There are no signs preceding it    FALSE

Name a sign that precedes the Rapture.

8. It affects believers only     FALSE: BOTH EVIL AND RIGHTEOUS RAISED

Your answer is true of the 2nd Coming, but not the Rapture.

9. It is a time of joy     FOR THE ELECT; ALL OTHERS NOT
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath   THE WRATH IMMEDIATELY BEGINS
11. No mention of Satan     TRUE
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next    TRUE
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb     IT BEGINS IT

The marriage takes place in heaven after the Rapture, after the Rewards Ceremony (not the judgment seat of Christ)

14. Only Christ's own will see him    COMPLETELY UNTRUE (REV. 1:7 ETC.)

You have referenced a 2nd Coming passage. See Dan 7.13, this is an allusion to it

15. The Tribulation begins     THE TRIBULATION HAS JUST ENDED

The 70th week of Daniel begins with the signing of the 7 year covenant. This is called the Tribulation in the NT. We are taken up Pre Trib.

Thank you for interacting with this post. I appreciate the time you put into it.

A couple of your answers led me to believe you are a post trib but other answers you appear to be a pre trib. In your theology, when does the Rapture happen?

 

[WilliamL]

20 minutes ago, EddieM said:

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

At the Rapture:
4. There is no judgment on the earth     JUDGMENT BEGINS THEN

This refers to no judgment by God on the earth.

Correction of me: WRATH BEGINS THEN
6. It is an imminent occurrence    FALSE

There are no signs that precede the Rapture. Many signs for the 2nd Coming.

FALSE.   MATT. 24:3 what will be THE SIGN OF YOUR PAROUSIA, and of the end of the age?” ... 27 “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the PAROUSIA of the Son of Man be. ... 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “Then the SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,
7. There are no signs preceding it    FALSE

Name a sign that precedes the Rapture.

SEE ABOVE.
8. It affects believers only     FALSE: BOTH EVIL AND RIGHTEOUS RAISED

Your answer is true of the 2nd Coming, but not the Rapture.

FALSE: JOHN 5:28-29 AND DAN. 12:2-3 SAY SO.
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb     IT BEGINS IT

The marriage takes place in heaven after the Rapture, after the Rewards Ceremony (not the judgment seat of Christ)

TRUE
15. The Tribulation begins     THE TRIBULATION HAS JUST ENDED

A couple of your answers led me to believe you are a post trib but other answers you appear to be a pre trib. In your theology, when does the Rapture happen?

Rapture takes place post-trib but pre-wrath. Summary of those events here:

86. Pre-Wrath Doctrine in a Nutshell    https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2924-pre-wrath-doctrine-in-a-nutshell/

Or if you want to understand the doctrine more fully, see the articles arrowed on my blog index here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/3571-index-of-articles-by-topic/

Did you read my other post I linked to about the Parousia? because explains a whole lot.

Edited November 7, 2024 by WilliamL

[EddieM]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Rapture takes place post-trib but pre-wrath. Summary of those events here

Thanks for clarifying your position.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, gentlemen, @EddieM, @JoeCanada, and @WilliamL.

I'm detecting the negligence of recognizing that the "rapture" is a PART of the Second Coming! The Resurrection happens at the Second Coming, and the rapture is simply the "snatching away" of those who are resurrected (and the living transformed) to arrive with the Messiah in His Land to help His own people and rescue them from their enemies! 

The goal of the "rapture" is NOT to "take us bodily to Heaven!" It's to take us THROUGH the "heavens" - the "skies" - to arrive where the Messiah is going! It's a MASS-TRANSIT SYSTEM, assisted by His messengers! If one gets the REASON for the "rapture" down correctly, the rest will sort itself out. 

What are the verses used for the "rapture?" Aren't they primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and John 14:1-3? Look at them once again VERY CAREFULLY:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (Yeeshuwa`) will God bring with him (with Yeeshuwa` the Messiah).

(Now, we ask, "How does God do this?" Paul replies,)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord (His SECOND Coming) shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (Greek: ἀπ᾽ οὐρανοῦ = ap' [apo] ouranou = "from [the]-sky") with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Greek: ἀρχαγγέλου = archaggelou = "chief-messenger"), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (in the Messiah) shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (Greek: ἁρπαγησόμεθα = harpageesometha = "we-shall-be-seized") together with them in the clouds (Greek: ἐν νεφέλαις = en nefalais = "in clouds"), to meet the Lord in the air (Greek: εἰς ἀέρα = eis aera = "into [the] air"): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice: He did NOT in these verses say WHERE WE ARE GOING NEXT!

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

Again, Yeeshuwa` said, "IN MY FATHER'S HOUSE are many mansions (Greek: μοναὶ πολλαί = monai pollai = 'residences many')." However, He did NOT say that He was taking them (or us) there when He returns! People have made that ASSUMPTION, but that's NOT what He said! He was telling them what He would be doing while He was away, but He was promising them that He would return! And, WHEN He returns, He said that He would be "receiving them unto Himself that where He IS there THEY would be as well!" The question to ask oneself is, "where will He BE when He returns?" He did NOT say He was taking them (or us) to "where He HAD BEEN!"

Now, since we have seen "the dead in the Messiah shall rise first" in the text of 1 Thessalonians 4:16, one should also review the Resurrection chapter which speaks about the resurrection without going into the timing as much:

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery (a secret); We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible (that which may decay) must put on incorruption, and this mortal (that which may die) [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isaiah 25:8)

55 "O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?" (Hosea 13:14)

56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, some people will try to define when this happens because in verse 52 Paul said, "at the last trump." However, one should turn this around and use this Resurrection to define when the "last trump" occurs, instead!

Finally, in using 1 Corinthians 15, we should go back to verses 20-28 as well, where there he is talking about THREE important Resurrections:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (singular); (this happened in 30 A.D.)
(1) afterward they that are Christ's (those who belong to the Messiah) at his coming.
24 (2)  Then [cometh] the end, when he (the Messiah, the Son) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (God) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For "he hath put all things under his feet." (Psalm 8:6) {But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest that "he" is excepted, which did put "all things under him."}

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Messiah, the Son), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him (the Messiah), that God may be all in all.

So, Paul noted that there would be TWO notable Resurrections (beside that of the Messiah Himself): The General Resurrection when the Messiah comes, and a General Resurrection when He delivers the Kingdom (the Worldwide Empire) to His Father. Noting that the Messiah reigns between theses Resurrections, we find the same in Revelation 20! Thus, this is speaking about His reign during the Millennium.

And, I would be remiss not to add that Yeeshuwa`s reign is NOT JUST for a thousand years! Gabriel told Mary,

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest (another term for God): and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Of course, this is NOT talking about the Worldwide Empire, but the Messiah Yeeshuwa` shall go on reigning over the house of Ya`aqoV ("Jacob") FOREVER, without end! (You all shall see this again soon within the Christmas story.)

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

When one understands that the Great Tribulation is NOT a "7-year period" but is actually a MUCH longer period sandwiched BETWEEN the two halves of that "7-year period," then one will understand that there cannot BE a "pretribulational rapture" or even a "mid-tribulational (pre-wrath) rapture!" We have only to look for a POST-tribulational rapture.

As Jesus said, 

So when you see the abomination of desolationa standing where it should not beb (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go back inside to retrieve anything from his house. 16And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

17How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not occur in the winter. 19For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short.

So no, it is not a long period of time. It's so destructive it must be stopped short of the full duration.

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And this is NOT a rapture "to Heaven!" It is a rapture THROUGH the heavens to arrive in Israel where our Lord Yeeshuwa` shall be going, and IN A HURRY!

Ignoring Rev 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands...

...So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Very much in heaven. proven here:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Where are the elders and the living creatures? We see that in Rev 4. The elders and the living creatures are in the throne room with God. The saved from great tribulation are in heaven, with God, around the throne. 

The many OT prophecies of the kingdom are clarified by the prophecies of Jesus in the NT. This is just another case of selective evidence, failing to take ALL the evidence into account.