Wrath v Great Tribulation

[Diaste]

A prophetic obfuscation exists in equating God's wrath with 'great tribulation, such as was not nor even will be'.

One doctrine claims the 'Tribulations Period' of 7 years is all God's wrath ergo, the rapture must occur before the beginning of the 70th Week.

When Jesus is telling us of this time He says, "all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory".

They weren't mourning before, while already being in the wrath of God? Maybe they didn't know they were experiencing the wrath of God. 

The 6th Seal shows us the wrath of God:

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Is there any way to determine when this wrath would take place? Would this be the beginning of the 70th week? The Midpoint? The very end?

There is a way.

This is the opening of the 6th Seal:

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

This is the Olivet Discourse:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Taking just the event and comparing [Rev 7 in black, Olivet Discourse in red]:

"the sun became black "

"The sun will be darkened,"

" the whole moon turned blood red"

"the moon will not give its light;"

"the stars of the sky fell to the earth"

"the stars will fall from the sky"

"every mountain and island was moved from its place."

"the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

And as Jesus says, this is after the A of D[midpoint of the week] and after the tribulation of those days; which is after the A of D. 

Therefore, God's wrath does not begin at the onset of the 70th week, but only sometime after the midpoint of the week.

 

[JoeCanada]

31 minutes ago, Diaste said:

A prophetic obfuscation exists in equating God's wrath with 'great tribulation, such as was not nor even will be'.

One doctrine claims the 'Tribulations Period' of 7 years is all God's wrath ergo, the rapture must occur before the beginning of the 70th Week.

When Jesus is telling us of this time He says, "all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory".

They weren't mourning before, while already being in the wrath of God? Maybe they didn't know they were experiencing the wrath of God. 

The 6th Seal shows us the wrath of God:

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Is there any way to determine when this wrath would take place? Would this be the beginning of the 70th week? The Midpoint? The very end?

There is a way.

This is the opening of the 6th Seal:

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

This is the Olivet Discourse:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Taking just the event and comparing [Rev 7 in black, Olivet Discourse in red]:

"the sun became black "

"The sun will be darkened,"

" the whole moon turned blood red"

"the moon will not give its light;"

"the stars of the sky fell to the earth"

"the stars will fall from the sky"

"every mountain and island was moved from its place."

"the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

And as Jesus says, this is after the A of D[midpoint of the week] and after the tribulation of those days; which is after the A of D. 

Therefore, God's wrath does not begin at the onset of the 70th week, but only sometime after the midpoint of the week.

 

Totally agree.

Tribulation is ... trouble ... persecution ... affliction ... "thlipsis"

Wrath is ... vehement, hot, intense anger... "orge"

1 Thes 3:3 ... afflictions ... "we have been destined for this"

2 Thes 1: 4-8 ... we are appointed to persecution ... affliction

 

[The Light]

53 minutes ago, Diaste said:

A prophetic obfuscation exists in equating God's wrath with 'great tribulation, such as was not nor even will be'.

One doctrine claims the 'Tribulations Period' of 7 years is all God's wrath ergo, the rapture must occur before the beginning of the 70th Week.

When Jesus is telling us of this time He says, "all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory".

They weren't mourning before, while already being in the wrath of God? Maybe they didn't know they were experiencing the wrath of God. 

The 6th Seal shows us the wrath of God:

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Is there any way to determine when this wrath would take place? Would this be the beginning of the 70th week? The Midpoint? The very end?

There is a way.

This is the opening of the 6th Seal:

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

This is the Olivet Discourse:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Taking just the event and comparing [Rev 7 in black, Olivet Discourse in red]:

"the sun became black "

"The sun will be darkened,"

" the whole moon turned blood red"

"the moon will not give its light;"

"the stars of the sky fell to the earth"

"the stars will fall from the sky"

"every mountain and island was moved from its place."

"the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

And as Jesus says, this is after the A of D[midpoint of the week] and after the tribulation of those days; which is after the A of D. 

Therefore, God's wrath does not begin at the onset of the 70th week, but only sometime after the midpoint of the week.

 

Exactly. Wrath will begin after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the day of the Lord.........the wrath of God.

The trumpets of wrath and the vials of wrath occur in the same time frame.......the 7th seal.

[douggg]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Diaste, the kjv reads differently for verse 17.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[douggg]

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Exactly. Wrath will begin after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the day of the Lord.........the wrath of God.

The trumpets of wrath and the vials of wrath occur in the same time frame.......the 7th seal.

It is important to note the winepress of God's wrath (in Revelation 14) - will take place the day Jesus returns to earth.   Which the winepress of God's wrath will be because the kings of the earth will have gathered to make war of Jesus.   Also, Jesus's wrath will be to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs.

Prior to that, during the great tribulation there will be the seven trumpet plagues on the earth in response to the prayers of the saints who are being persecuted during that time.

As the persecution gets worse, there are the seven vials of God's wrath poured out.

On my chart, I show the seven trumpet plagues.   Then the seven vials of God's wrath.

Then the winepress of God's wrath on the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to make war on Jesus.

 

Edited November 10, 2024 by douggg

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Diaste, the kjv reads differently for verse 17.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Sure. It look like the Greek is the collective idea, not the singular 'self'. 

I don't consider them to be individuals apart from the collective since the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One. The One are bringing wrath. They are three and One simultaneously. 

Either way, it doesn't alter the idea wrath is not great tribulation, and great tribulation is not wrath.

Edited November 10, 2024 by Diaste

[The Light]

8 hours ago, douggg said:

It is important to note the winepress of God's wrath (in Revelation 14) - will take place the day Jesus returns to earth. 

The DAY Jesus returns to the earth is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the 7th seal. It is the one-year wrath of God.

8 hours ago, douggg said:

 

  Which the winepress of God's wrath will be because the kings of the earth will have gathered to make war of Jesus.   Also, Jesus's wrath will be to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs.

Prior to that, during the great tribulation there will be the seven trumpet plagues on the earth in response to the prayers of the saints who are being persecuted during that time.

No Doug. NO!!!!!!!. The Great Tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal

8 hours ago, douggg said:

As the persecution gets worse, there are the seven vials of God's wrath poured out.

No Doug. NO!!!!!!!. The Great Tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

The vials of wrath occur in the same timeframe as the trumpets of wrath. Neither take place in the great tribulation.

8 hours ago, douggg said:

On my chart, I show the seven trumpet plagues.   Then the seven vials of God's wrath.

They occur in the same timeframe, the seventh seal.

8 hours ago, douggg said:

Then the winepress of God's wrath on the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to make war on Jesus.

See the sixth trumpet. See the 6th vial.

[douggg]

33 minutes ago, The Light said:

No Doug. NO!!!!!!!. The Great Tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal

No.  The great tribulation is over when Jesus returns in Revelation 19:20-Revelation 20:1-3 actions.

The 7th seal was opened by Jesus in Revelation 8.    Revelation 8 reveals that there will be 7 trumpet plagues.      Those 7 trumpet plagues take place during the great tribulation.

 

   

 

 

[missmuffet]

Here is my time line as pre-tribulation. Take it or leave it.

[douggg]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Here is my time line as pre-tribulation. Take it or leave it.

The pre-trib rapture view is pre-70th week.  

I show the same on this chart I made of the pre-trib view.

 

Edited November 10, 2024 by douggg