The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[EddieM]

On 11/9/2024 at 6:13 PM, AdHoc said:

In Acts 2:25-34 it is clear that David who is so high in the Kingdom that he will rule a whole nation in the Millennium, is not in heaven but Hades.

This was true in the OT. Then it was called Sheol. But Christ lead the captives to Abraham's bosom in heaven. The OT saints now reside in heaven and will be joined to their bodies at the 2nd coming. Remember on the mount of transfiguration two OT saints were, they were in glorified bodies.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, EddieM said:

This was true in the OT. Then it was called Sheol. But Christ lead the captives to Abraham's bosom in heaven. The OT saints now reside in heaven and will be joined to their bodies at the 2nd coming. Remember on the mount of transfiguration two OT saints were, they were in glorified bodies.

I appreciate your comments and agree that this is what the majority hold. But the grammar of Acts 2:25-34 forbids it. It is written in the present tense and Peter is CONTRASTING David with Christ. One has ascended - a whole man, leaving behind an empty tomb. The other has not yet ascended, is in Hades/Sheol and his rotted bones are still in his tomb - and all this 50 days after Christ rose and 10 days after He ascended to the Father.

Now, consider these too;
1. If the dead are in heaven, how do they RISE when Christ comes? (1. Cor.15, 1. Thess.4)
2. The dead are naked and now groan (2. Cor.5:1-5). Death is "absent from the body", so they could not have their new bodies yet. You cannot appear before God naked,
3 The dead are unclean. Heaven is God's Throne. Would Aaron go into the Holy of Holies naked?

At the Mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were alive in their bodies. Elijah had never died and Moses' body was fought for in Jude (past tense). Alive and clothed in heaven - yes! Dead, naked and unclean - no. Both are in the kingdom. This means that the have the bodies of 1st Corinthians 15:50-54

In Revelation 1:18 our Lord has the Keys to Hades. What for? It is 96 AD and our Lord has been risen for 63 years already. Is it because He is about to COME and meet the saints in the air?

Ephesians 4:7-10 probably does address the dead, but you will have to admit that it is a very flimsy verse to base such a doctrine. According to the grammar "captivity" did not go anywhere. It belonged to someone and was taken "Captive". We have a precedent in the Bible. The northern Tribes of Israel were taken captive by Assyria. A hundred years later Nebuchadnezzar conquered Assyria. The northern Tribes of Israel were "taken captive" by Nebuchadnezzar - but they went nowhere. Again, Cyrus defeated Babylon and Judah was set free. Thus, they are no longer "captives" but 97.5% stayed. The 2.5% who returned were not "Captivity" - they were free!

Much more, it would mean that the ascended Lord would have the Keys to Hades (Rev.1). The inmates are still captive, but the Boss has changed.

I propose that the doctrine of dead men in heaven is Roman Catholic leaven - a doctrine held while the Bible was locked away for 1,000 years. What do you think in light of this evidence?

[EddieM]

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I propose that the doctrine of dead men in heaven is Roman Catholic leaven - a doctrine held while the Bible was locked away for 1,000 years. What do you think in light of this evidence?

The Soul and Spirit don't die, only the physical body. The OT saints are in heaven in their Soul and Spirit, while the body is in the grave. This is not RC doctrine; this is Evangelical Doctrine. Where did Jesus say that the man on the cross would be upon death? ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’

After Christ was resurrected (his body only) he returned to heaven and he took captivity captive. Eph 4

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

Whao, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa,Whao, Whao, Whoa, Whoa,Whoa. 

What makes you think Adam and other Old Testament saints will rise up with the dead in Christ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

They already rose with Him, when He was risen, just as the prophecy foretold..., didn't they?


"Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive: Thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." Psalms 68:18 KJV

"Wherefore he saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8 KJV

Doesn't the transfiguration also show us others had risen even before that time? (just not risen 'out from the dead' as they 'being of faith' never died and were transformed from one body to the next, and they have been IN their spiritual bodies, like the saints under the altar, ever since).

Also, at the burning bush we learn, GOD is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, He is the GOD of the living and not the dead.  So, if we believe Christ rose, we have to believe 'EVEN SO THEM' (speaking not just of those who went to sleep FROM Adam un till the time Christ descended, those who died under the law so held captive and who for 3 days and nights, when He descended heard Him teaching and came to the TRUTH, and by repentance  their sin(s) now forgiven,  also rose as 'death' could no longer hold them...

 LEAVING IN HELL just 'the dead' (the dead buried by the dead) captives because never 'born from above' and not to be 'raised up' UNTIL Christ returns at which time SOME of those dead (the nations) will rise for the Millennium Kingdom to hear of Gods laws and at the end of that day, to face the 'loosing of Satan' after which they will EITHER at the GWTJ find their names in the Book of life and 'come to life' or go into the lake of fire. The REST of 'the dead' (those who didn't rise at Christs return) from the sea, death and hell will also go into the lake*.  


38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him. 39And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed Him openly; 41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.


Matt 10:40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth


 

Back to Eph 4:7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men.

Which basically says when CHRIST ascended on high, He led the multitude of captives up until then BOUND by death in the grave (death being the penalty of sin UNDER THE LAW) to heaven with Him.   

 162 aichmalóteuó: To take captive, to lead away captive

161 aichmalósia: Captivity  a captive multitude.

9(Now that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


How do we know there is NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE? 

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


THAT couldn't take place if PART OF THE BODY was taken away before the rest of the body had been fitted in.  Let's take up our cross and QUIT trying to 'save our own souls'.  



*

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Final Judgment

11And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, The Light said:

Whao, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa,Whao, Whao, Whoa, Whoa,Whoa. 

What makes you think Adam and other Old Testament saints will rise up with the dead in Christ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Isn't that part of the dogma? Did the doctrine make some changes? Isn't 1 Thess 4 the pretrib go to? 

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise." 

The 'dead in Christ'? From when? Isn't that an all time idea?

Wouldn't surprise me if there were changes, most of the pretrib evidence is nonexistent and many conclusions unsustainable.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the Woman is gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

If you can't show this pretrib group in heaven as being translated and resurrected before the last week begins á la, Rev 7:14, "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; ", and/or Rev 20:4, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Then there would be no one to gather from heaven, would there?

I mean, where is this vast group supposedly raptured from all the dead in Christ and the living believers caught up to heaven near 7 years before Jesus arrival? Why is scripture silent in that group of people enjoying heaven for 7 years before wrath?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

This the A of D, and people in the area are to flee.

Jews.......

That area of Israel is as multicultural and multiethnic as any region of the world. The great monotheistic religions have many adherents in Judea. This isn't limited to Jews, it's "let them in Judea flee". 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

100% exactly correct. We have exact timing and order.

And then there's this..........

Matthew 24

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Where is our timing and order? You search the scriptures for exact timing and order when we are told that He will come in an hour that we think not.

Yes. But the timing presented is an order of events, not clock and calendar. An event occurs, then, and only then, do other events follow. This is order and timing limited to the succession of events, not time and date. 

19 hours ago, The Light said:

 

The Lord comes at the trump of God or voice of God and the Lord comes at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Nah...there is no 'last trump' at the feast of trumps. The only last trump in all scripture associated with the coming of Jesus is the 7th trump. It is the last in a series of trumps at the end of the age and the herald of the gathering and the arrival of Jesus. 

There is no other. 

[EddieM]

On 11/9/2024 at 11:35 AM, JoeCanada said:

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

Does the word saints in the OT also refer to the church?

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, EddieM said:

The Soul and Spirit don't die, only the physical body. The OT saints are in heaven in their Soul and Spirit, while the body is in the grave. This is not RC doctrine; this is Evangelical Doctrine. Where did Jesus say that the man on the cross would be upon death? ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’

After Christ was resurrected (his body only) he returned to heaven and he took captivity captive. Eph 4

Okay. I built my point with about 6 proofs. These you have not answered. I'll take it that the stand.

You make the statement that the Old Testament saints are in heaven - but no scripture

You make the statement that thy are in heaven in Soul and Spirit - but no scripture, and no explanation as to James 2:26 which says a BODY without a spirit makes the man DEAD. So heaven is full of dead men.

"Evangelical doctrine"? Is this not what I said. It is the "majority doctrine".

Paradise? Let's see if it is under the earth or in heaven.
1. Jesus would spend three days "IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt.12:40)
2. Jesus FIRST DESCENDED (Eph.4:9)
3. God would not leave His (Jesus') soul IN HADES  (Act.2:27)
4. Jesus told Mary three days after His death "I have NOT YET ASCENDED" (Jn.2:17)

I commented at length on Ephesians 4. You can deny it, and ignore it, but that will not win an argument. 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation. I interpreted a "Captivity being led captive" using the Bible. You give no reason, nor logical build up from the Bible. C'mon brother. If my argument stands unanswered you are obliged to at least consider it.