The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[EddieM]

On 11/9/2024 at 3:06 PM, Indentured Servant said:

I do find it interesting that no one bases any doctrines on the fact that "church" is also not mentioned in:

Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude.

Of course the Church did not exist during Christ's ministry (i.e., during the Jewish dispensation)  as recorded in the Gospels. So, it is not unusual for the word Church to not appear in the Gospels. Matthew does mention church, but it is a future occurrence. The Church began on Pentecost per Peter.

2 TIm, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter don't use the word church (all NT Christians) because these are written to individuals.

the other three reference the believers as a whole, which is internally shown to be the believers.

Of course the Church is not mentioned after Rev 4 until the end of the letter because the 70th week of Daniel is part of the Jewish Dispensation, which had 7 years before the Messiah would come. The Church is not mentioned in the OT or Gospels because that is part of the Jewish Age. The 70th week is written to the Jews per Daniel 9.

I don't see any significance to these epistles that don't use the word Church but refer to believers in Christ.

 

[JoeCanada]

22 minutes ago, EddieM said:

Does the word saints in the OT also refer to the church?

What is the "church"? 

Is it not a "body of believers"?

Are they not the "called out ones"?

I would say yes ...  the saints in the OT are part of the "body of believers" ..... "called out ones" .... "those that are set apart"... "the ecclesia"

[EddieM]

17 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

What is the "church"? 

Is it not a "body of believers"?

Are they not the "called out ones"?

The Church is a body of believers that compose the Bride of Christ, i.e., those saved from Pentecost to the Pre-Trib Rapture. After that, the Jewish Dispensation finishes up its final 7 years according to Daniel 9. So, your post is a little naive, because not every "body of believers" is the Church. The. Church in the NT has a technical meaning, that is, a reference to the Bride of Christ, and it goes by other names (sheep, a building) as well.

[The Light]

On 11/27/2024 at 1:32 PM, JoeCanada said:

In Gen 7:11-13 we read that Noah and his family entered the ark on the very day that the flood waters came upon the earth.

You are misreading that. In Genesis 7:12 we have a concluding statement that there rain on the earth 40 days and 40 nights. We have a new paragraph in verse 13 with a new subject. Reading Genesis 7 we see Noah was told first thing to enter the ark.

Genesis 7

And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 7

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Noah entered the ark as instructed and at the end of 7 days the flood was upon the earth.

On 11/27/2024 at 1:32 PM, JoeCanada said:

 

Jesus verifies this in Luke 17:22 saying that the day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all.

I think you mean Luke 17:27

Luke 17

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

I see they ate, and drank and married until the day that Noah entered the ark. I see nothing that says the flood came that day. It cannot come that day as it would disagree with Genesis 7

On 11/27/2024 at 1:32 PM, JoeCanada said:

Yes, we all know that God told Noah that He would destroy the world in 7 days and that Noah was to enter the ark. He entered so that he could load the ark with some 30,000 animals and all the food to sustain everyone. This would be an impossibility to accomplish such a feat in one day. Imagine 1250 animals per hour for 24 hours  stampeding through an entrance and Noah directing them each to their stalls. Chaos!

I think that if God had them line up in front of the ark, He could also tell them where to go once inside the ark. 

On 11/27/2024 at 1:32 PM, JoeCanada said:

Noah was given 7 days to load the ship ... then after 7 days the flood came.

This would disagree with scripture.

Genesis 7

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Scripture tells us that Noah was first thing told to enter the ark. God also said after 7 days the flood would be upon the earth.

We are also told the Noah, his family, and all of the animals, entered the ark on the self-same day. This is not the day of the flood; it was the first day when he was instructed to enter.

It does not matter, what you think is possible, it only matters what the Word of God says.

[EddieM]

15 hours ago, EddieM said:

After Christ was resurrected (his body only) he returned to heaven and he took captivity captive. Eph 4

This is a reference to OT saints because at the time Christ told the other thief  he would be with him in Paradise, there was no Church in existence. Who are the people captive that Jesus takes with him to Paradise?

He takes the soul/spirit of OT saints while the OT saints' bodies are in the grave. The body is not a person but a bunch of flesh and bones that rot in the grave.

[The Light]

On 11/9/2024 at 2:06 PM, Indentured Servant said:

I do find it interesting that no one bases any doctrines on the fact that "church" is also not mentioned in:

Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude.

I don't think many base their doctrine on the fact that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 until Revelation 22. However, it seems to be a fact that escapes those that think the Church is still on the earth during both the tribulation AND many think they are on earth during the wrath of God.

On 11/9/2024 at 2:06 PM, Indentured Servant said:

 Fortunately, if one would dare read these chapters missing the word "church," one would see that the faithful in Christ are indeed mentioned frequently in regards to the tribulation and events taking place on the earth...

The faithful in Christ mentioned in the chapters of Revelation where the Church is not mentioned, are the seed of the Woman, the 12 tribes across the earth who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

On 11/9/2024 at 2:06 PM, Indentured Servant said:

Contrary to that, it is most fascinating that the "church" is never mentioned in any references to heaven or included as any of the variety of heavenly population mentioned in those same chapters, either. Applying modern theological reasoning, the church doesn't ever seem to make it to heaven, at all...

Unless they are dead...................

 

Is there any chance whatsoever that the dead in Christ and the alive that remain are the not the Church?

I would say your "unless they are dead" comment cuts no butter.

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Is there any chance whatsoever that the Lord didn't prepare a place for us at His fathers house? 

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

The 'dead in Christ'? From when? Isn't that an all time idea?

So do you think there were any before the flood, that accepted Christ as Messiah?

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Wouldn't surprise me if there were changes, most of the pretrib evidence is nonexistent and many conclusions unsustainable.

Oh, there is plenty of evidence, but you need to put down the goggles to see it. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why so many want to make the 70th week of Daniel about the Gentiles is beyond my level of understanding. 

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you can't show this pretrib group in heaven as being translated and resurrected before the last week begins á la, Rev 7:14, "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; ", and/or Rev 20:4, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Then there would be no one to gather from heaven, would there?

I mean, where is this vast group supposedly raptured from all the dead in Christ and the living believers caught up to heaven near 7 years before Jesus arrival? Why is scripture silent in that group of people enjoying heaven for 7 years before wrath?

Oh, here they are.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And you expect absolute, concrete proof that "that you are able to understand", showing without any doubt in your mind, that this is the Church in heaven.......for sure. It's not good enough that He tells you He is coming in and hour that we think not.

It's not good enough that there are 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest from the 12 tribes as all we need do is wave our wand, put on our goggles, deny what is written and claim the 144,000 are the Church.

It's not good enough that we are told that the harvest in Revelation 14, which occurs at the 6th seal has those that have gotten victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are of the twelve tribes.

I could go on, but scriptural facts, never seem able to overcome the googles.

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

That area of Israel is as multicultural and multiethnic as any region of the world. The great monotheistic religions have many adherents in Judea. This isn't limited to Jews, it's "let them in Judea flee". 

And yet those of the woman, Israel, that flee to a place of protection won't be Gentiles. On that we can be sure.

[Keras]

5 minutes ago, The Light said:

And you expect absolute, concrete proof that "that you are able to understand", showing without any doubt in your mind, that this is the Church in heaven.......for sure

I have never seen any such proof in the Bible. 

The rapture to heaven theory is a lie and a delusion, we humans never leave the place we were made to inhabit. 

Regarding who is the true Israel, you seem to have missed the many Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise if the House of Judah. Only a remnant will survive to join with their Christian brethren.