The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[WilliamL]

On 11/26/2024 at 5:56 PM, The Light said:

Those raptured immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal, when Jesus comes are seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Incorrect. This part of Revelation 14 is post-trib and post-rapture. It speaks of the full harvest of the earth, not the firstfruits/firstborn gathering of the elect. So this passage is about post-trib events. Huge difference.

For those who would like the details -- which I will assume leaves you out, because we have gone over this before a number of times -- the following two articles will explain how the firstfruits harvests differ from the full harvest, as fully foreshadowed in the feast days of the Mosaic Law:

56. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times. https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 2 https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2687-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20

[The Light]

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Incorrect. This part of Revelation 14 is post-trib and post-rapture. It speaks of the full harvest of the earth, not the firstfruits/firstborn gathering of the elect. So this passage is about post-trib events. Huge difference.

Agreed. But don't think you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. 

The seventh seal is the wrath of God, Day of the Lord.

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

For those who would like the details -- which I will assume leaves you out,

For those who don't UNDERSTAND the details -- which I will assume leave you in,

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

 

because we have gone over this before a number of times -- the following two articles will explain how the firstfruits harvests differ from the full harvest, as fully foreshadowed in the feast days of the Mosaic Law:

Bud, I understand this fully. 

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

56. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times. https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 2 https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2687-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20

You don't understand what you are reading.

Here are the 1st fruits

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The first fruits are 144,000 from the 12 tribes. So, the harvest will be of the 12 tribes.

Here is the main harvest.................WHICH IS THE SECOND HARVEST OF THE FIG TREE.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This harvest occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the seventh seal, one year, Day of the Lord, wrath of God

Do not confuse the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, for the second harvest, with the coming of Jesus at the end of wrath, the 7th trumpet.

[WilliamL]

21 minutes ago, The Light said:

But don't think you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. 

Been teaching this a very long time.

25 minutes ago, The Light said:

Here are the 1st fruits

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Inexcusable misquote. Verse 4 literally reads "a firstfruit," not "the firstfruits." Big difference.

Under the typology of the Mosaic Law, only the best of the harvest, the firstfruits, were/are to be taken up to God’s Tabernacle. In the End Times, the Tabernacle of God is “the true Tabernacle which the Lord erected…in heaven.” Heb. 8:1-2; Rev. 11:19; 15:5

The Heaven-Bound: Israel

The Latter Day firstfruits of men’s souls out of the tribes of Israel are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14:

Revelation 14:4 These were redeemed from men, a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb.

Like the 70 Israelite elders on Mount Sinai on Pentecost, and the 120 Israelite disciples of Christ in the Upper Room on Pentecost, the 144,000 Israelites will be sanctified for God’s earthly use at the time that the Presence/Parousía of Jesus descends in the clouds of heaven in power and glory. Ex. 24:1, 9-10; Acts 1:13-15; Rev. 7:1-4

The twelve tribes of Israel are a soulish assembly of people. This is because all ethnic groups are bloodlines, and “the soul of the flesh is in the blood.” Lev. 17:11

Like the 70 elders and the 120 disciples, and also like Mordecai in Esther’s day, the 144,000 will initially ‘come down from the mountain/Upper Room’ to work in God’s service on Earth; but they are later to ascend to the heavenly “Mount Zion…before the throne of God.” Rev. 14:1, 3, 5; cf. Heb. 12:22.

The Heaven-Bound: The Church

Now, upon Mount Sinai and in the Upper Room, the elect/chosen firstfruits consisted solely of Israelites. At Christ’s coming in the clouds of heaven, however, there is another group, one of predominantly Gentile firstfruits, called “the Church of the Firstborn.” Heb. 12:23 This body, the elect/chosen firstfruits of Christ’s Church, is prophetically represented by the wedding-going virgins – the “ready” ones – of Matthew 25:10; and also by the fairest-only virgins, selected out of “all the provinces of [the] kingdom,” gathered into the king’s house in the days of Esther. Esth. 2:3ff. (Note that the 144,000 are also called “virgins.” Rev. 14:4)

The Church is a “spiritual house [assembly]” of people. 1 Pet. 2:5

Like the virgins of Esther’s day, the Church of the Firstborn will ascend to and dwell in the King’s house; that is, in heaven. Rev. 7:9-17

The Heaven-Bound: The Manchild(ren)

Under the Torah of Israel, there were two kinds of firstfruit offerings:

1) an offering of two large loaves of bread baked from the year’s first harvest (grain), which offering was made at the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, and

2) the very special “first of the firstfruits” offerings, such as the “sheaf of the firstfruits [brought] to the priest” on the first Sunday after the Passover. Lev. 23:10-11; Ex. 23:19; 34:26 That was the very day in the religious calendar on which Yeshua ascended to God after His resurrection, He thereby becoming “first out of the resurrection of the dead.” Acts 26:23

To clarify: under the pattern of the Exodus-era Torah, the first day of the first week after the Passover was the day of the “first of the firstfruits;” whereas seven full weeks later, on Pentecost, came the prototypical fulness of the firstfruits. Lev. 23:15-17

In the End Times, the spiritual fulfillment of the “first of the firstfruits” will be that of the Manchild of Revelation 12:5, who is to be “caught up to God and to His throne” before the Woman has fully escaped into the wilderness with her people. Rev. 12:6; see Part 2.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

34 minutes ago, The Light said:

Here is the main harvest.................WHICH IS THE SECOND HARVEST OF THE FIG TREE.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. ...etc.

Wrong. As explained in part two of the above cited article.

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

Thanks. It has been a peaceful Sabbath. Hope for you also.

 

Yes. He told the Jews that He saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest..........fig tree at her first time. However, they went to Baalpeor and would no longer be the first harvest. This is not a mystery. This is just straight scriptural fact.

Shalom, @The Light.

Yeah, I know. That's what I'm talking about. There IS NO "Baalpeor" today! That was during the time of the two Kingdoms, the Northern Kingdom of Israel (the 10 Tribes) and the Southern Kingdom of Judah (the 2 Tribes), between 750 and 722 BCE. "Ba`al-P`owr" ("בַעַל־פְּעוֹר") was the "Lord of Peor," an idol specifically related to that community that lived in the "Gap" or "Cleft" of a mountain east of the Jordan River in Moab. It was a "left-over idol" because the two-and-a-half tribes of Israel that were supposed to inherit the land east of the Jordan failed to drive them out. It is mentioned in Numbers 25:3, 5; Deuteronomy 4:3; and Psalm 106:28, as well as here in the prophecy of הוֹשֵׁעַ ("Howsheea`").

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

The Jews (12 tribes) will not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Nope. The First Harvest, which Paul calls [the resurrection of] "those who are Christ's at His coming!" That includes ALL who will make up His Kingdom, Jew and Gentile alike, for "in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile!"

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

It's a shame that a man that appears to have spent a bunch of time in the Word of God could be so clueless. Hard to process.

Thank you for that "left-handed compliment." The truth is that it took quite a while to climb out of that cesspool of thinking that the "Gentile Church" was somehow superior to the "Chosen Seed of Israel," "the people of the Book." Imposed blindness does NOT make one morally deficient! But, the LACK OF HOPE does produce a "devil-may-care" attitude. Many of the Jews today have such an attitude because they HAVE lost hope in the fulfillment of prophecy. They have abandoned their hope in God, and many have turned to atheism, not because they're convinced it's true that God doesn't exist; they simply believe that He no longer concerns Himself with human beings. The Jews feel abandoned!

But, it wasn't GOD who abandoned them! It was CHRISTIANS - GENTILE BELIEVERS who abandoned them!

Paul said,

Romans 11:1-32 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life." (1 Kings 19:10, 14)

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?

"I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal." (1 Kings 19:18)

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written,

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;") (Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10)

unto this day.

9 And David saith,

"Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." (Psalm 69:22-23)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation (copying me) [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but LIFE FROM THE DEAD (RESURRECTION)?

16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, THE LUMP [IS] ALSO [HOLY]: and if the root [be] holy, SO [ARE] THE BRANCHES. 17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 BOAST NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also SPARE NOT THEE. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:

on them which fell, severity;
but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, SHALL BE GRAFFED IN:

FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFF THEM IN AGAIN. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be THE NATURAL [BRANCHES], be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN. 26 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33,34)

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes:
BUT as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. [God doesn't renege on His gifts or calling!] 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL.

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

Brother, neither the Church, nor the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth will be on earth during the wrath of God.

For one to say this demonstrates this one doesn't have a clue just how God's wrath works! One doesn't have to be out front, RECEIVING the wrath of God! One can be ON HIS SIDE, BEHIND HIM within the charge of His troups, as He leads us into battle!!

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

The only ones on earth during the wrath of God will be the woman, those that have fled to a place of protection, the two witnesses, and unbelievers. (including Antichrist, fallen angels, etc)

This is not true. When the Messiah returns to earth, He returns to begin His reign. Thus, He will collect those who belong to Him, and they will be His subjects, and some will "rule and reign with Him."

PLEASE understand: The "tribulation" is NOT a 7-year period, nor is the "great tribulation" a 3.5-year period. The "seventieth Week (Seven)" of Daniel 9:24-27 is split in two by the Messiah Himself; when they rejected Him as their King, He rejected that generation as His subjects! He pronounced them "DESOLATE" and He LEFT the world until they can say, "Blessed is He  who comes in the name of the LORD." ("Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." See Matthew 23:37-39 cf. Psalm 118:26) This means to WELCOME Him as the Messiah of YHWH.

They are a STUBBORN people! So, it's only taken roughly 2,000 years, and they haven't done so, yet! These 2,000 years have been the "tribulation"; the "pressure" (Greek: θλῖψις μεγάλη or thlipsis megalee, meaning "enormous pressure") put upon them to accept GOD'S choice for their Messiah - their KING! But, when they do, the tribulation will be over and He shall return immediately thereafter. The two halves of the 70th Week SURROUND the tribulation! They are like bookends to the tribulation! Within this time period of the tribulation, the days of tribulation have been lessened; so, now we can call them periods within the tribulation, like the Russian Pogroms, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Holocaust, to name a few. Lately, part of that "pressure" is called "terrorism," and Hamas, Hezbollah, the Palestinian Authority, et al, are all examples.

His dealing out the wrath of God is the process of subduing His enemies after He has returned, until the last enemy is defeated a thousand years later, which is "death" itself. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). One of the first exploits will be the battle under the watchful eye of Har Megiddown, today known as "Tel Megiddo," about 30 km (18 miles) southeast of Haifah, in the valley of Jezreel (בְּעֵמֶק יִזְרְעֶאל = b`eemeq Yizr`e'l) just to its north. "הַר מְגִדּוֹן" or "Har Megiddown" is transliterated into Greek as "Ἁρμαγεδδών" or "Armageddoon." (Revelation 16:16).

Those of us who claim to be "Christians" are ADOPTED into His mishpachah - His family - and as such, we are also members of the Tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") through Him! (Romans 8:9-17). Therefore, we also become Jews (Romans 2:28-29). See, we know that there's no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Messiah (Ephesians 2:11-18), but ONLY within the Messiah! Outside of the Messiah, there is still a difference! However, the ONE family is not "the Church," as so many teach, but is HIS KINGDOM, which is comprised of both the children of Israel, those who have learned who the Messiah is and those who have not, and the Gentiles who accept Yeeshuwa` as their Sacrifice for sin.

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @The Light.

Yeah, I know. That's what I'm talking about. There IS NO "Baalpeor" today! 

Baalpeor is just Baal being worshiped by the Moabites on Peor mountain. 

As for there is no Baal today, I don't think you understand who Baal is.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Nope. The First Harvest, which Paul calls [the resurrection of] "those who are Christ's at His coming!" That includes ALL who will make up His Kingdom, Jew and Gentile alike, for "in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile!"

John 10 

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So many of you want to jump right to the end after the cake is baked. You want to skip the ingredients and the steps necessary to make the cake.

Those who are Christs at His coming will be the Gentiles first as the Gentiles currently hear His voice. This is the first fold. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in blindness will be removed from part of Israel. Then they will hear His voice. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest.......they that are Christs at His coming will be raptured before the wrath of God.

There are two folds, just as the Word says. Christ will come for the 1st fold pretrib. Then Christ will return for the second fold prewrath.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Thank you for that "left-handed compliment." 

You're welcome.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The truth is that it took quite a while to climb out of that cesspool of thinking that the "Gentile Church" was somehow superior to the "Chosen Seed of Israel," "the people of the Book."

Actually, I think the Jewish Church is considered the Chosen Bride. There are two brides as Jacob had two wives.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Imposed blindness does NOT make one morally deficient! But, the LACK OF HOPE does produce a "devil-may-care" attitude. Many of the Jews today have such an attitude because they HAVE lost hope in the fulfillment of prophecy. They have abandoned their hope in God, and many have turned to atheism, not because they're convinced it's true that God doesn't exist; they simply believe that He no longer concerns Himself with human beings. The Jews feel abandoned!

But, it wasn't GOD who abandoned them! It was CHRISTIANS - GENTILE BELIEVERS who abandoned them!

You are barking up the tree if you think I do not understand these things. There are two folds. The Gentiles are the first fold. Then there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of the second fold. Then there is the harvest of the second fold seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

For one to say this demonstrates this one doesn't have a clue just how God's wrath works! One doesn't have to be out front, RECEIVING the wrath of God! One can be ON HIS SIDE, BEHIND HIM within the charge of His troups, as He leads us into battle!!

Or two folds can be in heaven for the marriage supper during the wrath of God just as the Word says.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is not true. When the Messiah returns to earth, He returns to begin His reign. Thus, He will collect those who belong to Him, and they will be His subjects, and some will "rule and reign with Him."

We can prove that your statement is incorrect with scripture. He is the Lord on the earth when He comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Revelation 14

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

PLEASE understand: The "tribulation" is NOT a 7-year period,

Absolutely agree.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

nor is the "great tribulation" a 3.5-year period. 

Absolutely agree.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The "seventieth Week (Seven)" of Daniel 9:24-27 is split in two by the Messiah Himself; when they rejected Him as their King, He rejected that generation as His subjects! He pronounced them "DESOLATE" and He LEFT the world until they can say, "Blessed is He  who comes in the name of the LORD." ("Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." See Matthew 23:37-39 cf. Psalm 118:26) This means to WELCOME Him as the Messiah of YHWH.

The 70th week was not split. The 70th week is about the people of Daniel. And we know the week is not split because there is a confirming of the covenant for one week.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

They are a STUBBORN people! So, it's only taken roughly 2,000 years, and they haven't done so, yet! These 2,000 years have been the "tribulation"; the "pressure" (Greek: θλῖψις μεγάλη or thlipsis megalee, meaning "enormous pressure") put upon them to accept GOD'S choice for their Messiah - their KING! But, when they do, the tribulation will be over and He shall return immediately thereafter. The two halves of the 70th Week SURROUND the tribulation! They are like bookends to the tribulation! Within this time period of the tribulation, the days of tribulation have been lessened; so, now we can call them periods within the tribulation, like the Russian Pogroms, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Holocaust, to name a few. Lately, part of that "pressure" is called "terrorism," and Hamas, Hezbollah, the Palestinian Authority, et al, are all examples.

None of this agrees with the Word of God.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

His dealing out the wrath of God is the process of subduing His enemies after He has returned, 

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. He will remain in clouds and gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper during the one year wrath of God.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Those of us who claim to be "Christians" are ADOPTED into His mishpachah - His family - and as such, we are also members of the Tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") through Him! (Romans 8:9-17). Therefore, we also become Jews (Romans 2:28-29). See, we know that there's no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Messiah (Ephesians 2:11-18), but ONLY within the Messiah! Outside of the Messiah, there is still a difference! However, the ONE family is not "the Church," as so many teach, but is HIS KINGDOM, which is comprised of both the children of Israel, those who have learned who the Messiah is and those who have not, and the Gentiles who accept Yeeshuwa` as their Sacrifice for sin.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile when the two folds become one fold. 

[abcdef]

On 12/1/2024 at 5:42 AM, Diaste said:

No. Rev 21 describes physical attributes of the City. This cannot be spiritualized away.

When your spirit leaves your body and this material world, we will all understand things better.

The Rev 21 & 22 passages are describing things that cannot be fully comprehended by souls in the material world.

They are communicated to us through things that we can relate to.

1 Pet 2:5, Says that we are living stones in a living temple.

That is what Rev 21 & 22 are describing, the living temple and the relationships with Jesus/God.

[abcdef]

On 12/1/2024 at 5:39 AM, Diaste said:

No. The succession is Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Diadochi, then one from one for the Diadochi.

This I  agree with.

On 12/1/2024 at 5:39 AM, Diaste said:

Rome is never mentioned except by the dispensationalist doctrine.

 It should be obvious that Rome was in power over the children of Israel at the time of Jesus. Where is that time in the Dan 2 statue?

Rome ruled over the children of Israel from 63 BC until 1967, where is that time in the statue of Dan 2?

Where are we now in the statue of Dan 2?

The Diodochi are attached to the Greece/brass part of the statue. The metal is iron after Greece domination ends.

 

[abcdef]

On 12/1/2024 at 5:37 AM, Diaste said:

There are.

I can agree here, somewhat.

 

On 12/1/2024 at 5:37 AM, Diaste said:

And where is the Millennial Kingdom of the Messiah recorded?

Define the millennium kingdom.

The millennium kingdom began on the day of Pentecost in 33 AD.

Dan 9:24-27, doesn't mention it, but it is implied in the idea that the Messiah would be king and start the kingdom of Israel, which Jesus did.

 

On 12/1/2024 at 5:37 AM, Diaste said:

No A of D. 

Yes the AoD did happen in the 1st century with Titus the Antichrist.

If there was no AoD in those times, then Jerusalem would not have been desolated.

 

On 12/1/2024 at 5:37 AM, Diaste said:

Not the one Jesus prophesied. How can Jesus prophesy of the A of D in the first century and it was fulfilled in 168 BC?

What a great question. I would ask you the same question.

Jesus was not making a prophecy about Antiochus in history. 

He was making a prophecy about 35 years in the future to Him and the 70 AD desolation of Jerusalem.

 

 

 

 

[abcdef]

On 12/1/2024 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

The Old Testament records the Holy Spirit's presence in the believers pre 1st Century. There is one congregation, One God, One Spirit, One Lord Jesus Christ.

What you say is true, but the OT saints were not in the Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel with the gift of the Holy Spirit. 

John the Apostle was, Rev 1:9.

Lk 7:28, John the Baptist was not in the kingdom, He died before the kingdom began.

 

On 12/1/2024 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

I think this is more speculation than reason. 

 

On 12/1/2024 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

It's fine to speculate, but you should acknowledge it.

 

On 12/1/2024 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

No mark, no image, no beast, no dragon, among many other missing elements.

What are you referencing, Rev 12?

Do you expect ever passage to cover every subject?

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, abcdef said:

What a great question. I would ask you the same question.

Jesus was not making a prophecy about Antiochus in history. 

He was making a prophecy about 35 years in the future to Him and the 70 AD desolation of Jerusalem.

What I'm trying to point out is what Jesus said. He spoke of the A of D a spoken of by Daniel the prophet. That A of D prophesied of by Daniel was fulfilled in 168 BC. That means we have a template for the A of D that Jesus told us about; "when you see the abomination of desolation..." That A of D prophesied by Daniel in the 9th chapter is described here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/353-abomination-of-desolation

And the surrounding acts by AE IV described here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

You'll see that Titus really had nothing to do with it and did not fulfill the prophecy or comport with the template.