The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[The Light]

14 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

These are my thoughts; some differences may lie in the translation used.

Revelation 1:9 (KJV) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:9 (NASB) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in the tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The apostle John was not in THE Tribulation, but they were under persecution and tribulation from the Romans and Jewish religious leaders. Both they and we are appointed tribulation:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

There will be no doubts when THE Tribulation arrives:

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The following is recorded after the 4^th Seal, billions have died, including many who accepted the Lord as their Savior before the 5^th Seal:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Naturally, I could misunderstand this verse, but the subject matter and context seem limited to those martyred in the Tribulation, not the martyred saints of all time.

As I understand, we Christians in the church age at the Rapture/Resurrection will be given our white robes at the Bema Seat of Christ. I also realize that OT saints will not be resurrected until the 2^nd Advent.

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In structure, context, and vocabulary, I surmise the above is limited to the martyrs before the beginning of the 5^th Seal, vial, and trumpet judgments. Many more are to be martyred, and they are to wait patiently.

Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen (past), and the things which are (present in John's day), and the things which shall be hereafter (starting @ chapter 4); [Emphasis mine]

Starting in Revelation chapter 4, this is all future from John's day and perspective. One of several divisions of Revelation is that it is divided chronologically into past, present, and future beyond John's lifetime. Therefore, it stands to reason that these martyred saints under the altar are yet future, beyond John's day. If so, that cannot include the martyred saints of all time. 

Again, I am not claiming my exegesis is correct, but if it is, that leads me to my question. Why do those martyrs not know where they are in time and sequence in THE Tribulation? If those martyrs read and retained Daniel and Revelation alone, they would know exactly how long.

It would make a lot more sense if these were martyred saints of all time. But I cannot manipulate my understanding to see it that way yet.

You are correct.

The Great Tribulation is the tribulation of those days. It cannot begin until the AOD is set up which is future

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Do you realize there are hundreds of people that claim to hear God's voice that all contradict each other? Someone claiming to hear God's voice is just evidence of personal agenda; especially when the supposed hearing contradicts the written evidence. 

My business is not to dwell on the negatives, so, all Satan has to do for you is to put forth a few false prophets and all true men of God could then never put forth a word from God. You do understand all the Prophets lived in times when they had counter culture false religions with 1000s of false prophets, so by that thinking no one should have listened unto them. The truth is it was rare to have a King like David who heeded a prophet like Nathen and repented, mat true prophets were killed at the hand of the Jews and/or the Jewish Kings like John being killed, etc. many were killed in this manner for bringing forth the word of God. 

The REAL DEAL comes down to this, YOU and I or OTHERS, have to be able to tell what is of God and what isn't of God. I can listen to any preacher for 5 minutes and tell if the word is of God, the Holy Spirit bears the witness. There are always 20 times more false prophets/false teachers, the Holy Spirit is our verify button. Any time I see someone that does not get the Raptures TIMING correct a red flag goes up as per unto their Eschatology, they may know all the pertinent facts about the Gospel as per getting saved, how to live a righteous life in Christ by Faith alone, etc. etc. But not every man is called unto the same things, those not called unto Eschatology, who love dabbling in it ought to defer to those who are called unto it, that is the problem and why we the Church have 100s of beliefs, Satan loves sowing division brother, never forget that. You can put 100 preachers before me and you can know 95 are not really of God and I can pick all 95 out in 5 minutes. The 5 who are of God I can also pick out, the Holy Spirit knows all brother. We just have to learn to TUNE IN. We can not tune in by listening to Rock Music, watching TV all the time, or by watching Football/Basketball/Soccer. 

[Dennis1209]

59 minutes ago, The Light said:

The connection is Jesus will come, and His reward is with Him.

Revelation 3

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The connection is that the 24 elders are before the throne WITH CROWNS.

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The connection is the dead in Christ rise first.

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The connection is He is coming in an hour that you think not.

1 Thes 4

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You are expecting a paved highway with road signs so you can have absolute 100% chiseled in stone proof of when He comes. He tells you He is coming when you think not. You don't believe Him? All you get are bread crumbs. You either see them or you don't.

The Church is mentioned 19 times in the 1st 3 chapters of Revelation, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22 at the end. Is that absolute proof that the Church has been raptured? Of course not. But when you put everything together them not being mentioned in Chapters 4-21 should make you stand up an take notice.

Further, and most importantly, the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel who we can prove are of the 12 tribes......as the first 69 weeks took place before the Church was born.

Even further those who are the seed of the woman are seen in Revelation 15 singing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes, obviously

And further still, blindness cannot be removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

It would be wise to realize the master is coming when you think not. Watch and be ready as instructed.

The seals go in order 1 thru 7. That is why order is given to them. You fail to understand that Jesus comes for a harvest at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. You want to pretend that those 7 trumpets of wrath are occurring during the tribulation period. You don't know the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.

We are all entitled to our exegetical views. It does not matter except for friendly discussion and comparison; I agree with all your opinions until the final paragraph. I understand the 6^th Seal view of the Rapture, and sound arguments are presented supporting that view.

Several knowledgeable and godly men have changed their pretribulation view to that of the 6^th Seal. Not long ago, one of the best creation debaters I have ever listened to, Kent Hovind (Dr. Dino), changed his decade’s-long view to the sixth Seal.

But anyway, as you are aware, there are seven years of tribulation, the last half referred to as the great wrath of God, never seen before or ever will be seen again. Who and when is opening the seal judgments on the earth dwellers?

During the first four seal judgments, billions will die, and things are only beginning to heat up. Is this not also the wrath of God watered down and building up?

A human father has two sons: one righteous who loves his father, who fails his father now and then but tries to obey his father’s instructions for his own good. The other, a careless child who hates his father, willfully disobeys his father’s wishes and instructions. Who curses him, torments him, rebels, does not believe him, or is grateful for the blessings his dad has bestowed upon him. Are both equally subject to their dad’s wrath, disinheritance, and punishment, like in the military, corporal punishment?

If the first half of the tribulation, with billions dying by war, plague, and famine (the results of global war), if that is not wrath watered down, I do not know what is.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

We are all entitled to our exegetical views. It does not matter except for friendly discussion and comparison; I agree with all your opinions until the final paragraph. I understand the 6^th Seal view of the Rapture, and sound arguments are presented supporting that view.

Several knowledgeable and godly men have changed their pretribulation view to that of the 6^th Seal. Not long ago, one of the best creation debaters I have ever listened to, Kent Hovind (Dr. Dino), changed his decade’s-long view to the sixth Seal.

Brother, I have not changed my pretribulation rapture view to the 6th seal. I believe there are two raptures, as the fig tree has two harvests. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served Baalpeor and will not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. 

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel, the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth will have their eyes opened.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

After the Church is raptured, Pretrib, there needs to be first fruits of the second harvest, hence the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

So the Church is already in heaven pretrib and then the second harvest is the 12 tribes across the earth...........at the 6th seal. That harvest is seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

It is the twelve tribes across the earth that the dragon goes after when he cannot get to the woman Israel. The twelve tribes across the earth are the seed of the woman that keeps the commandments of God and has testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is why those that get victory over the beast by the blood of the lamb during the tribulation are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews (of the twelve tribes)

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

So there are two raptures as there are two harvests, grain and fruit. Jacob had two brides. One coming like the days of Noah and another coming like the days of Lot. One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of the trumpet. One coming, the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angel.

Two raptures, the Church before the tribulation and the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal, prewrath.

The woman Israel, will remain on the earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

But anyway, as you are aware, there are seven years of tribulation, the last half referred to as the great wrath of God, never seen before or ever will be seen again. Who and when is opening the seal judgments on the earth dwellers?

I cannot agree that there are 7 years of tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel where God turns His attention to Israel but Noah was sealed in the ark somewhere within the 7 days. We know he spent the 1st day of the seven loading animals and I believe the Church will spend the 1st day of the 7 gathering believers to the ark.

Secondly I do not believe that the wrath of God has anything to do with the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Immediately after the tribulation...........which occurs at the 6th seal......Jesus comes.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Wrath has not started when the tribulation is over and will not begin until the 7th seal is opened.

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

During the first four seal judgments, billions will die, and things are only beginning to heat up. Is this not also the wrath of God watered down and building up? 

No. It is not wrath..........it is tribulation.........and it will be on the Jews. Any Gentiles on the earth after the pretrib rapture will be given strong delusion and believe the lie. The only Gentiles between the pre trib rapture and the prewrath rapture will be gleanings......the poor and stranger........those who had not previously heard the Word of God.

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

A human father has two sons: one righteous who loves his father, who fails his father now and then but tries to obey his father’s instructions for his own good. The other, a careless child who hates his father, willfully disobeys his father’s wishes and instructions. Who curses him, torments him, rebels, does not believe him, or is grateful for the blessings his dad has bestowed upon him. Are both equally subject to their dad’s wrath, disinheritance, and punishment, like in the military, corporal punishment?

True.

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

If the first half of the tribulation, with billions dying by war, plague, and famine (the results of global war), if that is not wrath watered down, I do not know what is.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

All that war and famines and pestilence will be brought on the world by the dragon who seeks to kill and destroy. The are the beginning of sorrows. Gods wrath will not occur until the 7th seal is opened. The wrath of God will last one year.

Edited December 13, 2024 by The Light

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Brother, I have not changed my pretribulation rapture view to the 6th seal. I believe there are two raptures, as the fig tree has two harvests. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served Baalpeor and will not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. 

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel, the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth will have their eyes opened.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

After the Church is raptured, Pretrib, there needs to be first fruits of the second harvest, hence the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

So the Church is already in heaven pretrib and then the second harvest is the 12 tribes across the earth...........at the 6th seal. That harvest is seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

It is the twelve tribes across the earth that the dragon goes after when he cannot get to the woman Israel. The twelve tribes across the earth are the seed of the woman that keeps the commandments of God and has testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is why those that get victory over the beast by the blood of the lamb during the tribulation are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews (of the twelve tribes)

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

So there are two raptures as there are two harvests, grain and fruit. Jacob had two brides. One coming like the days of Noah and another coming like the days of Lot. One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of the trumpet. One coming, the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angel.

Two raptures, the Church before the tribulation and the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal, prewrath.

The woman Israel, will remain on the earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

I cannot agree that there are 7 years of tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel where God turns His attention to Israel but Noah was sealed in the ark somewhere within the 7 days. We know he spent the 1st day of the seven loading animals and I believe the Church will spend the 1st day of the 7 gathering believers to the ark.

Secondly I do not believe that the wrath of God has anything to do with the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Immediately after the tribulation...........which occurs at the 6th seal......Jesus comes.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Wrath has not started when the tribulation is over and will not begin until the 7th seal is opened.

No. It is not wrath..........it is tribulation.........and it will be on the Jews. Any Gentiles on the earth after the pretrib rapture will be given strong delusion and believe the lie. The only Gentiles between the pre trib rapture and the prewrath rapture will be gleanings......the poor and stranger........those who had not previously heard the Word of God.

True.

All that war and famines and pestilence will be brought on the world by the dragon who seeks to kill and destroy. The are the beginning of sorrows. Gods wrath will not occur until the 7th seal is opened. The wrath of God will last one year.

Yep, there are many views on this topic. The best and brightest Biblical minds, from the so-called early church fathers to the present, cannot agree on much.

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yep, there are many views on this topic. The best and brightest Biblical minds, from the so-called early church fathers to the present, cannot agree on much.

Fortunately, we are at the time of the end and the book is now unsealed. 

Edited December 14, 2024 by The Light

[Dennis1209]

14 hours ago, The Light said:

Fortunately, we are at the time of the end and the book is now unsealed. 

That is one thing pretty much everyone agrees on in this generation, those who are watching and patiently waiting anyway.

[Jaydub]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:31 AM, Dennis1209 said:

We are all entitled to our exegetical views. It does not matter except for friendly discussion and comparison

I appreciate that statement and your humility, though I do think it matters. You are right, it makes good conversation

Quote

 

There will be no doubts when THE Tribulation arrives:

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

 

On 12/13/2024 at 9:31 AM, Dennis1209 said:

But anyway, as you are aware, there are seven years of tribulation, the last half referred to as the great wrath of God, never seen before or ever will be seen again. Who and when is opening the seal judgments on the earth dwellers?

Matthew 24 is a great chapter and and one of my favorites. Have you ever compared it to Luke 21? Matthew and Luke are talking about the same event, when Jesus tells them not one stone will be left upon another and the disciples ask when will this be?

you are using Matthew 24:21 as a end time passage

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

First, if its an end time passage, isn't it a little strange that he said nor ever shall be. If we are to read this as the very last days, why did he say, nor ever shall be? Doesn't make much sense if there is no time left, but it would make sence if it was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem/Israel

In Luke we read

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Here in Luke we can see more clearly that this wrath/tribulation is not an end time prophecy, but about the destruction of Jerusalem/Israel

[Diaste]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:40 AM, Revelation Man said:

But not every man is called unto the same things, those not called unto Eschatology, who love dabbling in it ought to defer to those who are called unto it,

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. 

 44For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect.

33Be on your guard and stay alert!g For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

3 35Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning

 37And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

It's for everyone. Any one who says it's only for certain people is the deceiver. 

[Diaste]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:30 AM, The Light said:

The connection is Jesus will come, and His reward is with Him.

Revelation 3

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

On 12/13/2024 at 9:30 AM, The Light said:

The connection is that the 24 elders are before the throne WITH CROWNS.

As I said, where is any interpretation of the elders equated with the church? The elders aren't a prophetic sign like the woman in Rev 12, they aren't a representation of something else like the Whore of Babylon. 

So beyond scripture stating the elders are equivalent to the church, the elders are not designated as a sign, allegory, metaphor or analogy. They are a group existing unto themselves.

You have made category error based on crowns as if the only group that could ever be wearing crowns in heaven are only ever translated believers.

And it's just a likely 'crown' in Rev 2 and 3 is a metaphor for the reward of eternal life and not a golden crown like the elders wear, as described in Rev 4. 

On 12/13/2024 at 9:30 AM, The Light said:

 

The connection is the dead in Christ rise first.

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Because the dead rise first that means the elders are the church? Non sequitur.

On 12/13/2024 at 9:30 AM, The Light said:

The connection is He is coming in an hour that you think not.

1 Thes 4

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Another non sequitur.

On 12/13/2024 at 9:30 AM, The Light said:

You are expecting a paved highway with road signs so you can have absolute 100% chiseled in stone proof of when He comes. He tells you He is coming when you think not. You don't believe Him? All you get are bread crumbs. You either see them or you don't.

No. I expect a road uncluttered of potholes, dead ends and forks to no where.