The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

You're inserting a time element. We only know that when the harvest occurs, these are the ones that are the initial gleaning. There's no when here in relation to any other event to show there is a long or short time between.

The 24 elders have crowns. Obviously, Jesus has come, and His reward was with Him.

 

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is wrath, not the gathering of the elect.

I not sure how you can claim this is not a harvest and is wrath. Wrath has not happened.

Revelation 14

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is wrath getting ready to happen to the unrighteous. The unrighteous are getting cast into the wrath of God. You do understand that this harvest occurs at the 6th seal, don't you?

Revelation 14

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

They are cast into the 7th seal wrath of God. The righteous are gathered from the earth. They are mostly of the 12 tribes across the earth. They meet the Church in in the air as the Church has been gathered from heaven. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

No field of crops work like that. There is no wheat field I have ever harvested where a few plants in a small area ripen before the rest, and then are gleaned weeks before the rest.

I just saw it happen last week when I was quail hunting. I was telling one of the guys that we need to walk into a particular green group of plants. Even in the winter, these plants are green, and you can almost always find quail in then early in the morning. When we got over there, there was no quail and I looked at the top of the plants that will grow a three inch tall seed flower and most were only 1 to 2 inches with green seeds. I told them we were too early in the season as there was little rain that summer. I looked around and found a group that was mature with darks ripened seeds. I let them know we were 2 to 3 week early until the rest of the field is ripened.

In modern day farming with irrigation, genetic engineering and all land flat with no shade, sure it all usually ripens close to the same time, but that is not the norm. If you have a huge field with no irrigation and only half the field gets rained on when it matters most, that field will not ripen at the same time.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

The first fruits are just the first of the main harvest taken for a special purpose. That's the analogy. 

The first fruits are removed from the field and given to the priests to present to God. This occurs before the harvest. I'm sure if you did a little research about first fruits you would find this is the case.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think you are. You continue to assume there is a church apart from the Israel of God. Then you mix in the nation of Israel, Jews, and misinterpret based on a dispensational doctrine. Equating the Israel of God with the nation of Israel and the Jewish religion, while claiming there exists a 'church' apart, set aside for special privilege, is a man construct. 

 

There will be one fold. That will be Israel. Before that event occurs, the Gentile believing Church will be the first fold. Then part of Israel will have its eyes opened. This will be the 12 tribes across the earth. They are the second fold. Both folds are gathered into one fold.

You want to jump to one fold without recognizing the events that take place to get to one fold. Two folds are joined into one fold.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

Then who are these people In Chapter 6?

 

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

They are the Remnant Church and John describes them as such in Rev. 12:16-17, who come unto Christ AFTER the Rapture, and I can prove this "Remnant can not be Jewish, and thus has to be a Gentile Remnant [Church]. Now, lets take a look at those passages you cited and lets decipher them.

Rev. 6:9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, (1)I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, (2)“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and (3)told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

The Seals are NOT REAL TIME EVENTS, but instead John is being shown (COME AND SEE) what all happens when Gods Wrath starts falling in Rev. 8. Only at that point in time the Anti-Christ go forth conquering. 

1.) So, John was shown these dead souls BEFORE they even died.

2.) They ask Jesus a question right? NO, Jesus foretells what their hearts are asking, whilst they are in a holding place for souls, like those who have died are today, no one goes straight to heaven, the bible tells us that. The Dead in Christ are RAISED and we are are ALIVE are also raised at the same time. But Jesus knows their heart, of course, he is God the Redeemer. Their heart wants vengeance for those that [CURRENTLY] dwell on earth, in other words when will those who killed them be judged? So, Jesus tells us if we listen!!

3.) Jesus tells them (really tells us) that these people MUST WAIT OR REST a while longer UNTIL.......UNTIL......UNTIL the rest of their brothers have been  KILLED in like manner as they have. Let me decipher, they MUST WAIT until the Anti-Christs 42 month reign of terror is over, when Jesus returns to kill him, and casts him into hell along with the False Prophet.

So, those people are people who repented, then died during the 70th week, why would people not see this factoid? Of course God the Father & Jesus the Redeemer would allow people to get saved during the 70th week, they are MERCIFUL Holy Beings after all. 

Now lets prove that Rev. 12:15-17 is talking about a Remnant Gentile Church, not the 1/3 Jews NOR the 2/3 Jews. Post Rapture people will dodge this because it proves that a Remnant (Small part of a larger thing or entity) is all that is left on this earth and that the Full Church can not be on this earth, else there would be no Remnant Church.....Right? 

Rev. 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water(A.C. Army) as a flood after the woman(Israel), that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman(like in Egypt), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth(God protects Israel and makes Satan angry).

17 And the dragon was wroth(angry) with the woman(Israel or the 1/3 Jews who REPENT), and went to make war with the remnant(small part) of her seed(Jesus is indeed Israel's SEED as shown in  Gal 3:16)  which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

OK, lets add this up, this can ONLY be the Remnant Gentile Church, but why?

Because 1.) the 1/3 Jews who repents (Zechariah 13:8-9) is being PROTECTED by God, and the A.C. and his army can not get at them so this gets Satan ANGRY !! So, this Remnant CAN NOT be the 1/3 can it? Satan is never allowed to get at them, they are protected in the Petra/Bozrah area by God. 

2.) The Remnant CAN NOT be the 2/3 Jews who do not repent because because 2/3 of a whole is not a remnant and because we know the 2/3 Jews who refused to repent WILL NOT have the Testimony of Jesus Christ will they? So, if the Remnant can not be the 1/3 nor the 2/3 the Remnant CAN NOT be a Jewish Remnant can they? Which means we have to continue our digging into the facts to solve this problem, who can "The Remnant" be? 

So, Satan WENT to make War with the Remnant (small part of a bigger part) of her (Israel's) SEED (and by reading Gal. 3:16 we know that ONE SEED is Jesus Christ, not MANY SEEDS but ONE SEED) who keeps God Commandments AND have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. 

So, THE SEED is Jesus and the Gentile Church is the Remnant of Israel seed Jesus Christ, who keep the commandments of God AND have the Testimony of Jesus. Why? Because they REPENTED after the Rapture, thus the Church is in Heaven at this time, and the Remnant Church is on earth, going through these trials and tribulations. Remember, CAN'T BE a Jewish Remnant, thus it can only be the Gentile Church Remnant.

So, THE CHURCH is in Heaven and THE REMNANT Church is on earth. 

EDIT: As per those in chapter 7 ( I missed that point) they are the Pre Tribulation or pre 70th week Raptured Church, who came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, because millions of our brothers and sisters were killed during the Church Age. In John 16:33 Jesus tells us that ALL TIME on this earth is Tribulation. 

 

Edited November 24, 2024 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

They are the Remnant Church and John describes them as such in Rev. 12:16-17, who come unto Christ AFTER the Rapture, and I can prove this "Remnant can not be Jewish, and thus has to be a Gentile Remnant [Church]. Now, lets take a look at those passages you cited and lets decipher them.

Okay. I'm with you.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 6:9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, (1)I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, (2)“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and (3)told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

If I understand, I'm still with you.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Seals are NOT REAL TIME EVENTS, but instead John is being shown (COME AND SEE) what all happens when Gods Wrath starts falling in Rev. 8. Only at that point in time the Anti-Christ go forth conquering. 

Now I'm not. 

So you're saying the martyrs are not being killed at the 5th seal, but rather the seal is presenting a condition going forward?

And you are also saying the martyrs are being killed in the wrath of God? So then God is killing His own martyrs?

Doesn't pretrib say no believer will be in the wrath of God?

Are you saying the the martyrs, "who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." are not believers? 

In order for what you're saying to be true, God is putting them in harms way and is responsible for their death specifically for "the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld."

Now how is that possible when all the pretribbers get the early escape and never see the wrath of God, because they have the word of God and the testimony and are believers?

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

1.) So, John was shown these dead souls BEFORE they even died.

Not how it reads, but you go.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

2.) They ask Jesus a question right? NO, Jesus foretells what their hearts are asking, whilst they are in a holding place for souls, like those who have died are today, no one goes straight to heaven, the bible tells us that.

The holding place? You mean, "I saw under the altar...". John is in the great throne room. It's the same altar as:

Revelation 8:3

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:5

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Revelation 9:13

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:1

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 14:18

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Revelation 16:7

And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

I'd say they are in heaven. I think it's weird to say they are not heaven. Maybe pretrib saints aren't in heaven, maybe they are terrified of being in heaven. But these people? They be in heaven:

"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

To deny this is to deny God's word.

 

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Now lets prove that Rev. 12:15-17 is talking about a Remnant Gentile Church, not the 1/3 Jews NOR the 2/3 Jews. Post Rapture people will dodge this because it proves that a Remnant (Small part of a larger thing or entity) is all that is left on this earth and that the Full Church can not be on this earth, else there would be no Remnant Church.....Right? 

The Revelation of Jesus Christ makes it clear who these people are and from where they are from and what they are a remnant of; and it's not what you surmise. You only surmise this from a long history of prophetic misinterpretation imbedded by the doctrine of dispensationalism. 

Let's look, not that you'll see, but let's do it anyway. Your words follow...

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

17 And the dragon was wroth(angry) with the woman(Israel or the 1/3 Jews who REPENT), and went to make war with the remnant(small part) of her seed(Jesus is indeed Israel's SEED as shown in  Gal 3:16)  which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman is Israel, as you say. That is correct.

The remnant is of the woman, as you say. This is also correct.

Jesus is not the seed of Israel. Jesus is before all things. You messed this up to fit a doctrine. You really need to stop believing such things. There is no support for this idea as Galatians 3:16 says the exact opposite of what you conclude.

The seed of the woman keep the commands of God and the testimony of Jesus. This can only be those in Christ, as you say. This is correct.

Where you go off the rails is the false premise above rendering a false conclusion the remnant is of a pretrib church. The remnant is of the Israel of God, the true believers. 

If you are not of Israel you are not the seed of Abraham and are not in Christ. 

And aside from all that, this is the church of God, a church you all say isn't in Revelation past Chapter 4. Only those that keep the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ are the church of God. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 11/19/2024 at 11:52 AM, The Light said:

The 24 elders have crowns. Obviously, Jesus has come, and His reward was with Him.

 

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Other than a wish and hope there is no evidence the elders are representative of the church. That's built on a false foundation of dispensationalism. 

[Diaste]

On 11/19/2024 at 11:52 AM, The Light said:

I not sure how you can claim this is not a harvest and is wrath. Wrath has not happened.

Context. That's the key. Context, context, context. 

On 11/19/2024 at 11:52 AM, The Light said:

Revelation 14

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is wrath getting ready to happen to the unrighteous. The unrighteous are getting cast into the wrath of God. You do understand that this harvest occurs at the 6th seal, don't you?

At this verse it looks like the harvest of the righteous.

On 11/19/2024 at 11:52 AM, The Light said:

Revelation 14

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is a different context to verse 15-16. This is wrath.

 

On 11/19/2024 at 11:52 AM, The Light said:

 

They are cast into the 7th seal wrath of God. The righteous are gathered from the earth. They are mostly of the 12 tribes across the earth. They meet the Church in in the air as the Church has been gathered from heaven. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

But just because we see a picture of these events, does not mean this is the When. What we do see is the harvest of the righteous is immediately prior to the harvest of the grapes of the unrighteous. This order and timing of the two comports with all the written testimony of the arrival of Jesus, the gathering of the elect and the fall of wrath.

This is how the two events in question relate to each other in time/space. We can't even accurately discern when those two events occur in relation to Rev 14:1-13. It looks to me like the whole chapter has elements of successive/concurrence. Some events happen in order, and those are overlayed or underlaid with other events.

[Diaste]

On 11/19/2024 at 11:52 AM, The Light said:

I just saw it happen last week when I was quail hunting. I was telling one of the guys that we need to walk into a particular green group of plants. Even in the winter, these plants are green, and you can almost always find quail in then early in the morning. When we got over there, there was no quail and I looked at the top of the plants that will grow a three inch tall seed flower and most were only 1 to 2 inches with green seeds. I told them we were too early in the season as there was little rain that summer. I looked around and found a group that was mature with darks ripened seeds. I let them know we were 2 to 3 week early until the rest of the field is ripened.

In modern day farming with irrigation, genetic engineering and all land flat with no shade, sure it all usually ripens close to the same time, but that is not the norm. If you have a huge field with no irrigation and only half the field gets rained on when it matters most, that field will not ripen at the same time.

I worked fields, planted, harvested, and stored corn and small grains, for years. Sure some heads ripened before others, but the ripe ones waited till all ripened before we began the harvest. And it wasn't just my extended family that did it this way, every farmer for many miles did it like this. You never saw anyone walking through field grabbing single stalks because the head was ripe a week or two early. You can't scythe either as you'll cut down unripe stalks. 

You're just ill informed here. 

So...the farmer waits till the entire crop is ripe, not just a few golden heads, then begins the harvest taking the first of the harvest into special storage for a unique purpose, then continues with no breaks. Any crop taken that was not ripe would mold and ruin the stored grain, or ferment, heat up, and burn the bins down.

This is the same with the harvest of believers. Jesus would never risk taking the unripe believer to spoil the ripe and ready harvest.

And that is the last I'm going to say about it. 

Edited November 23, 2024 by Diaste

[Desopixi Seilynam]

But we are here.

Jesus ascended into heaven, sat down at the right hand of the Father, (Hebrews 12:2)
and opened the scroll at, the right hand of the Father.

Revelation 5:1,7-9 That is when the end times began.

And Revelation 6:5-6 is happening. Hitler and the like, that time, was the climax of the red horse. What is ushered in by each horse, remains throughout, as world war and conquest has remained, albeit, clandestinely. The craters we see in the land are evidence that some of Revelation 8:5-9 has happened. The chapters are telling the same repeated prophecy, but each with their own details of it. The idea of 'aliens' will be used to mask 9:7-11.
 

[The Light]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Other than a wish and hope there is no evidence the elders are representative of the church. That's built on a false foundation of dispensationalism. 

That is built on the fact that Jesus has obviously come, and the elders are before the throne in heaven with crowns.

Revelation 3

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

You look for evidence when Jesus will come in an hour that you think not.

Where have I seen this??

""Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as is his work." - The King of Kings

Edited November 23, 2024 by The Light