The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[The Light]

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

How is it "obvious"? ... and to whom is it "obvious"? 

The elders have crowns. Jesus has come.

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I know you are claiming that the church is being represented by the 24 elders,

Never said that. However, I do think they are part of the dead in Christ. I think the kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the full Church 

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

and the church has been raptured pre 70th week ... correct me if I'm wrong. Where do we see the resurrection pre 7oth week? ... because the dead in Christ rise before the alive in Christ are caught up?

I do not believe that the Church is raptured pre 70th week. I believe they are raptured before the abomination of desolation is set up.

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Where do we see the judgment that's pre 70th week? 

There is no judgement pre 70th week.

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

In Daniel 7, he describes the beast and his blasphemies and boasting, and we know this happens around the middle of the  70th week. And Daniel says he keeps looking until thrones were set up and the books were opened. These books are judgment books and also the book of life. They are opened just prior to the resurrection and rapture. 

I am not aware of any Biblical verse that says the books are opened just prior to a rapture. Where are you getting this from? Not Daniel 12?

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

How is it that pre 70th weekers say  that these books are opened prior to the 70th week beginning, actually a full year prior to the 70th week beginning, because there can be no reaping during a Sabbath year, which is the year prior to the beginning of the 70th week?

I see no scripture that says that the Church is raptured pre 70th week. Noah is a picture of the Church being raptured and He entered the ark 6 days before the flood. But we do not know what day the Lord shut the ark door, I don't believe.

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I have a few more about the elders/church ... but please answer this one first.

Okay.

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

How is it "obvious"? ... and to whom is it "obvious"? 

The elders have crowns. Jesus has come.

"The elders have crowns"

The woman in Rev 12 has a crown

The rider of the white horse has a crown

The locusts have crowns

Just because there are those who wear crowns doesn't mean they are all part of the church ... obviously!

"Jesus has come" .... show me with  scripture to back up your statement

2 hours ago, The Light said:

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

and the church has been raptured pre 70th week ... correct me if I'm wrong. Where do we see the resurrection pre 7oth week? ... because the dead in Christ rise before the alive in Christ are caught up?

I do not believe that the Church is raptured pre 70th week. I believe they are raptured before the abomination of desolation is set up.

I will believe it too if you can show me proof

 

2 hours ago, The Light said:

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Where do we see the judgment that's pre 70th week? 

There is no judgement pre 70th week.

I agree

 

2 hours ago, The Light said:

I am not aware of any Biblical verse that says the books are opened just prior to a rapture. Where are you getting this from? Not Daniel 12?

Daniel 7 is an end times prophecy. 

In Daniel 7:9-10, the court sat and the books were opened. Anytime God judges, the books are opened.

Then in verses 13-14, Jesus is given His Kingdom.

So between verses 9-10 and 13-14, between judgment and His kingdom, is the resurrection and rapture.

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Noah is a picture of the Church being raptured and He entered the ark 6 days before the flood. But we do not know what day the Lord shut the ark door, I don't believe.

In Gen 7:11-13 we read that Noah and his family entered the ark on the very day that the flood waters came upon the earth. Jesus verifies this in Luke 17:22 saying that the day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all.

Yes, we all know that God told Noah that He would destroy the world in 7 days and that Noah was to enter the ark. He entered so that he could load the ark with some 30,000 animals and all the food to sustain everyone. This would be an impossibility to accomplish such a feat in one day. Imagine 1250 animals per hour for 24 hours  stampeding through an entrance and Noah directing them each to their stalls. Chaos!

Noah was given 7 days to load the ship ... then after 7 days the flood came.

[DeighAnn]

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus WAS NOT speaking to or for ANYONE other than His disciples.  Either you are a Christian and THE MESSAGE is for you (if you have EARS to hear) or you AREN'T and it isn't. 

But for those who are IT IS VERY CLEAR by the Lords own words...

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,


8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan 


HOW on earth would CHRIST come and NOT EFFECT THE ENTIRE PLANET?  Who would ever believe after that that SATAN claiming to be God could deceive the whole would?   And does He return as 'the Saviour' YET again 

OR

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


BECAUSE

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


WHAT follows those words given in Isaiah?  ANOTHER DAY of SALVATION?  
 

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

7For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

8For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

9And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

11For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

How is it "obvious"? ... and to whom is it "obvious"? 

I know you are claiming that the church is being represented by the 24 elders, and the church has been raptured pre 70th week ... correct me if I'm wrong.

Where do we see the resurrection pre 7oth week? ... because the dead in Christ rise before the alive in Christ are caught up?

Where do we see the judgment that's pre 70th week? 

In Daniel 7, he describes the beast and his blasphemies and boasting, and we know this happens around the middle of the  70th week. And Daniel says he keeps looking until thrones were set up and the books were opened. These books are judgment books and also the book of life. They are opened just prior to the resurrection and rapture. 

How is it that pre 70th weekers say  that these books are opened prior to the 70th week beginning, actually a full year prior to the 70th week beginning, because there can be no reaping during a Sabbath year, which is the year prior to the beginning of the 70th week?

I have a few more about the elders/church ... but please answer this one first.

I'll be interested to hear what @The Light has to say about this.

[Diaste]

On 11/26/2024 at 8:31 AM, The Light said:

And the Church being raptured before the GT, and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman being raptured before the wrath of God.

I see this:

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

This the A of D, and people in the area are to flee.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Here is when GT begins, only after the A of D. That means at least the midpoint is when GT begins. If one ascribes to a 7 year end of the age time period, that means GT only begins halfway through. Further meaning the 1st half of the week IS NOT tribulation. 

 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance.

26So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

The only 'after' and 'tribulation' and 'those days' this can refer to is the above days of great tribulation that arise when those in Judea see the abomination of desolation.

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

The harbingers of Jesus arrival for the world, the herald of the King for His people.

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is the only gathering you or I or anyone else sees complete with timing and order: A of D, GT, The Signs, the gathering.

No other order of events is possible. 

2 Thess 2 says the same thing, no gathering takes place before the apostasy and the revealing of the beast. 

And if there is a pretrib rapture of all the living, and the dead in Christ from Adam to the moment of the rapture, where are these people pictured in scripture a la, the one in Rev 7 and Rev 20? 

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

This the A of D, and people in the area are to flee.

Jews.......

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Here is when GT begins, only after the A of D. That means at least the midpoint is when GT begins. If one ascribes to a 7 year end of the age time period, that means GT only begins halfway through. Further meaning the 1st half of the week IS NOT tribulation. 

Agree.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

The only 'after' and 'tribulation' and 'those days' this can refer to is the above days of great tribulation that arise when those in Judea see the abomination of desolation.

Agree.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

The harbingers of Jesus arrival for the world, the herald of the King for His people.

Jesus remains in the clouds for the gathering from heaven and earth.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is the only gathering you or I or anyone else sees complete with timing and order: A of D, GT, The Signs, the gathering.

100% exactly correct. We have exact timing and order.

And then there's this..........

Matthew 24

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Where is our timing and order? You search the scriptures for exact timing and order when we are told that He will come in an hour that we think not.

The fig tree has two harvests.

There is a grain harvest and fruit harvest

He comes when it's like the days of Noah and He comes when it's like the days of Lot.

The Lord Himself comes, and He sends His angels when He comes again

The Lord comes at the trump of God or voice of God and the Lord comes at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

No other order of events is possible. 

Matthew 24

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

 

Edited November 28, 2024 by The Light

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

2 Thess 2 says the same thing, no gathering takes place before the apostasy and the revealing of the beast. 

 

The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the Woman is gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

And if there is a pretrib rapture of all the living, and the dead in Christ from Adam to the moment of the rapture, where are these people pictured in scripture a la, the one in Rev 7 and Rev 20? 

Whao, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa,Whao, Whao, Whoa, Whoa,Whoa. 

What makes you think Adam and other Old Testament saints will rise up with the dead in Christ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

[The Light]

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

"The elders have crowns"

The woman in Rev 12 has a crown

The rider of the white horse has a crown

The locusts have crowns

Just because there are those who wear crowns doesn't mean they are all part of the church ... obviously!

The elders are in heaven with crowns as Jesus has come. He has prepared a place for us.

Jesus didn't prepare a place in heaven for the others .....obviously.

 

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

 

Edited November 28, 2024 by The Light

[The Light]

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

 

Daniel 7 is an end times prophecy. 

In Daniel 7:9-10, the court sat and the books were opened. Anytime God judges, the books are opened.

Ok.

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Then in verses 13-14, Jesus is given His Kingdom.

Ok

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So between verses 9-10 and 13-14, between judgment and His kingdom, is the resurrection and rapture.

You are making an assumption that is not based on scripture. The events that happen between verse 10 and verse 13 are posted below. They tell us exactly what happens between verse 10 and 13. No need for incorrect assumptions that lead us from the truth. 

Daniel 7

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

 

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said: