Daniel 8-Clarifying some entities and events during the end times.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for your thoughts! Yes, I agree the second and the third kingdoms are the Medes-Persians and Greece, respectivley. And if you do not mind, I would like to mention the goat that represents Alexander of Greece is shown to have a "large horn" as opposed to a "notable horn."  This is important to understand because in Chapter 8, God uses two very specific qualitiers or identifiers to ensure we focus on His prophecies and not steer away by attributing the specific actors He is speaking about in these prophecies. The 4 generals are not referred to as "horns" even though some translationns use that English word. They are 4 notable or conspicuous ones and never a horn. 

And at this time in the chapter, I do not see anything that speaks specifically about the "end times." I would ask you to consider that verses 1-8 speak to the 4 kingdom period from Babylon to the coming of the little horn in the 4th kingdom of Rome in verse 14. 

Verse 9 - prophecies the coming of the little horn (papacy),

Verse 10 - prophecies that he will grow up to the host of heaven and cast some of the host and the stars to the ground. This refers to when he will come to reign over the 4th beast kingdom (after pagan Rome is destroyed - 7:11), and will be replaced by papal Rome.

Verse 11 - prophecies he will even claim divinity and claim to be God on earth (he would even exalt himself as high as the Prince of the host (Jesus). And it was this Jesus who, because of His sacrifice on the cross would take away (do away with) the need for any further animal  sacrifices, and He would FULFILL and DO AWAY with the need for the Temple, the Sanctuary, the first 4 feast days. They were are established in Leviticus as a type and shadow of His coming and fulfillment.

Verse 12 - Because of transgression (Jews rejecting their own Messiah), the little horn would grow in power and might and he will amass a great army (of followers). This little horn would also (metaphorically) oppose the "daily sacrifices." Meaning, they would come to declare that the "sacrifice" of Jesus on the Cross was not enough to gain salvation. They would declare that salvation must come through their church and the sacraments and many other demands MUST be kept for salvation. It would be the cross plus works through their church. And of course, all of this has been true for some 1500 years and they casted God's Word and His Testimony to the ground. They have indeed re-written the script - including His 10 commandments.
 

Verse 13 - This is a very important verse in Chapter 8. We have Gabriel asking God when will these things be? He is asking Jesus 4 things: the first two speak specifically to the cross - the sacrifices and the transgression that will be taken away and the timing of the Jews rejection of their Messiah. The second two speak specifically to the time after the cross when the Sanctuary and the Host (Jesus) will be trampled on. These two apply to the time when the little horn will think himself to be god on earth and will corrupt and trample His church (for the next 1500 years).

Verse 14 - This is one of the most misunderstood verses in all the Bible. Rather than answer Gabriel's 4 part question directly, He turns to Daniel and tells him that the Sanctuary will be cleansed in 2300 evenings and mornings. This was not one of the 4 questions posed by Gabriel. But it would be Jesus Himself who would tell this prophecy directly to Daniel - who would have no idea what it means! This is a messianic prophecy where Jesus is telling Daniel the Sanctuary (heavenly) will be cleansed by Him (Jesus) in 2300 days. It does not apply to the "physical" elements that have been restored - the Temple, the Sanctuary, the walls and streets, etc. Everyone one of them would be entirely "FULFILLED" by the cross. Their God given mission on earth was completed. They would never again house the Presence of God within them... they are no longer necessary and have become "common" physical structures that have no holy purpose ever again. Their coming destruction in 70 AD is no different than the "doing away" with the "daily sacrificie," the first 4 feast days, the High Priest, etc. 

So, if one accepts this is indeed the correct interpretations within these few verses, then the 2300 days prophecy must be also found to occur with Jesus and the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. And it does! So, if you would like to calculate it, it is there in front of you. 

Please consider an alternative interpretation and let me know y0ur thoughts on the above, and I will focus on 2:44 since this is the verse you have quoted:

In Chapter 2, God reveals the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that HE WILL DECIDE THAT COMES OUT OF THE SEA OR THE EARTH AND ARE TO BE INCLUDED WITHIN HIS PLAN OF SALVATION / RESTORATION. He only wants us to focus our attention to these 4 - He will ensure He places all of His prophecies WITHIN these 4 and only 4 kingdoms AS HIS PEOPLE TRAVEL THROUGH THESE 4 AND ONLY 4 KINGDOMS. 

In Chapter 2, God will give us the "Dream Sequence." This is found in verses 27 to 35 only. This is the "big picture" of what will take place. It covers from the time of Babylon to the end of time. Please notice He gives us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the sea or the earth (meaning this is what He brings out), and there are ONLY two ACTIONS that will take place within this "big picture" which covers over 2700 years. And this is how God is presenting His plan of salvation and restoration - both for His people and His city in the "end times" (and the first time this phrase will be used is to refer to the "end times of the 70 weeks of years prophecy when the Messiah is crucified," to the "true end times." 

Thus, verse 2:34, despite EVERYONE'S CLAIM, does not represent the "true end times" action but His first coming. Jesus did not come to destroy but to divide. And that is exactly what He did. The Stone (Messiah) struck the FEET ONLY of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome for the purpose of breaking apart and separating His people (Jews - clay) from their bondage and control within the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome. Symbolically, He broke into pieces those found within the iron kingdom those pieces of clay that would accept Him as their Messiah and go out into the world to preach the Good News. These are referred to in verses 2:41-43 as "pottery clay," because they would be molded by the Messiah to do His Good Work after the cross. Those of His people that would continue to reject Him as their Messiah would be referred to as "ceramic clay," because their hearts were hardened and would refuse to believe Him. They would continue onto this today to reject Jesus. This is what is all found in verses 2:41-44. These are the "interpretation sequence" verses which provide the "details" of the events and actors that are to be placed WITHIN THE APPROPRIATE DREAM SEQUENCE VERSES ABOVE. In Chapter 2, these verses are to be placed BETWEEN VERSES 2:34 AND 2:35.There is a 2000 year difference between these two verses. Verse 2:35 and 2:45 are both true end time verses, but notice that God  is purposefully concentrating on the events that will occur up to His first coming. And this will continue in the same fashion THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE HEBREW CHAPTERS. It is all about HIM.

Specfically, 2:44 tells us that God will indeed "set up" His earthly kingdom during the times of these kings (within the time of these 4 kingdoms in Daniel). He will not leave them to another people. This also confirms these verses are all about His first coming - The Jews were chosen by God to learn, obey and teach the One true God to the world - to the pagans and the Gentiles of the world. Instead, they kept Him to themselves and failed in their God given mission. So, God's plan would include His sacrifice on the cross and whoever believed He was the Messiah would be saved. Now, God would take those "pottery clay" Jews that accepted Him and He would send them out into the world preaching the Good News. But the most important thing would be that He would now ONLY entrust His teachings, ability to His Holy Spirit. The Jews failed in their mission but His Holy Spirit would never disobey God. He would succeed in His mission where the Jews failed. Meaning, that God would never again entrust this mission to any other peoples, nations or groups to teach the world of the One true God. And this unfortunately, is exactly what the little horn would do! He would appropriate God's church and declare salvation comes only through his church and they are the "replacement" church from the Jews failure.
 

Well, I think that might enough for now. I will respond to your comments later on this evening. Hope you do not mind reading on of the above and give it some of your consideration. 

 

 

I have made my points about who the ram and he goat kingdoms are, and when they are to take place, during the end times according to the angel Gabriel. If you wish to claim otherwise, that is up to you. By doing so, however, you will only keep yourself in darkness in regards to the truth; with the increasing in knowledge of these events true meaning (Daniel 12:4 & 9), remaining obscure.

In the King James bible the he goat is described having a notable horn in verse 8:5, that is then later described as being a great horn in verse 8:21.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, luigi said:

I have made my points about who the ram and he goat kingdoms are, and when they are to take place, during the end times according to the angel Gabriel. If you wish to claim otherwise, that is up to you. By doing so, however, you will only keep yourself in darkness in regards to the truth; with the increasing in knowledge of these events true meaning (Daniel 12:4 & 9), remaining obscure.

In the King James bible the he goat is described having a notable horn in verse 8:5, that is then later described as being a great horn in verse 8:21.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Wow. That certainly came out of left field - to me!  I think we can go on our separate ways and thanks for the thought!

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, luigi said:

Yes, Ok, and without a doubt the rulers of Media and Persia are removed from power by the ruler of Greecia; but let me ask you: Is it the king of Greecia who annihilates (the kings) of Media and Persia , or is it the kingdom of Greecia who annihilates (the kingdoms) of Media and Persia (Daniel 8:6-7)? 

Daniel 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

 

Can't really have one without the other. What's a king with no kingdom? What's a kingdom with no king?

At Alexander's mandate, the power and authority of the king, the kingdom followed that lead and put their collective mind and power behind him. 

Without the king the kingdom isn't going to march on Persia. Without the kingdom the king isn't going to defeat Persia,

So the answer is...both, at the same time for the same purpose. 

[luigi]

54 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Can't really have one without the other. What's a king with no kingdom? What's a kingdom with no king?

At Alexander's mandate, the power and authority of the king, the kingdom followed that lead and put their collective mind and power behind him. 

Without the king the kingdom isn't going to march on Persia. Without the kingdom the king isn't going to defeat Persia,

So the answer is...both, at the same time for the same purpose. 

Well, I guess we'll soon see (as here we are in the end times) whether Gabriel's statement to Daniel about the events shown Daniel in chapter 8 are all about the end times, or whether some of these events include Alexander the Great in the 2nd century BC. If Iran (Persia) will soon be annihilated by metaphorical Greece's air force, and metaphorical Greece's initial form of government in all its glory, soon thereafter secedes into four new governments; we'll then know all the events in Daniel 8 were about the end times, and not some 2nd century BC events.