Babylon, Babylon, Babylon...

[Triton57]

23 hours ago, Luther said:

I always stress that because the book of revelation is highly allegorical or figurative (spiritual) in nature, a lot of us go down that path of trying to conclude some sort of literal sense to something when certain numbers can be much easier understood in a figurative sense.

There is a lot of symbolism in Revelation for sure, I just think it's important to interpret the figurative with scripture because it's very easy to insert our own ideas into the interpretation of the figurative and veer off course.

However, I also think there is a lot of "literal," though I don't really like using that word, in Revelation and the other prophetic books. For instance, when a period of time is given, I take that at face value and some amazing insights come to light.

In terms of Zechariah 13:8-9, it's not really a precise value in terms of coming up with any kind of literal number, but I don't think it's really trying to make any point other than 2/3 of Israel will be cut off and 1/3 refined. But even this could have other meanings than some outside force attacking and killing 2/3 of Israel.

Think of it in terms of Romans 11 and the root that bears the branches and gives them life. The natural branches will be broken off in unbelief, but they can be grafted back on again just as the wild branches were broken off (died to self) and grafted onto the root, which is Christ. (born again) So you don't die immediately when broken off the root, but you don't gain nutrients anymore and eventually you can't be grafted back on.

John 15:5-6
I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

So the idea of being cut off from the people and dying doesn't have to be synonymous, but remaining in unbelief and going after other gods makes them synonymous from an eternal perspective because without Yeshua our destination is sure. Just as Adam and Eve didn't die the very day they ate the fruit from the tree, even though at that point they now required a root to be grafted back onto in order to live. (Not accounting for the fact that they did indeed die the very day they ate the fruit from God's perspective where a day is as 1,000 years and Adam died when he was 930, just 70 years shy of a "day.")

Prophecy is a very confusing thing to decipher for sure, which is why there are so many views. There are different ways to look at things and my view has changed a lot from when I first started. The more I read and understand scripture in context the more things come to light that fit with the greater narrative, all scripture has to agree with itself. I think the only way we can come to anything close to a consensus is to let scripture interpret scripture, and even then there are many wrong roads we can go down. I think you're right that there's a lot of allegorical, figurative, symbolic language, I just think also that God has also put some literal things in there, and even places where the properly interpreted symbols have literal meanings.

But as the time gets closer it will become more clear, we just need to stick to scripture. I look forward to the time as iron sharpens iron and events unfold that we will all begin to come together in understanding as we each adjust our views to fit reality. I know I'll have a lot of things to change I'm sure, but I'm willing to drop any false view I have in the search for Truth.

[Triton57]

6 hours ago, Jaydub said:

There is one scripture that answers that question for me, it is Revelation 18:24

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

How can a city be responsible for the deaths of the prophets and saints and all who were slain on the earth? Babylon the great is not a place, its disobedience to our God, it is rejection of God and his word, it is our sinful nature, in this way revelation man is correct it is the whole world, because the earth will be judged of its sins. 

It is why we see in Revelation 18:4 God says, come out of her my people, so you do not share in her sins

We are not being called out of a place. We are not being called to come out of the world, but we are being called to come  out of our sinful ways. We are no longer of this world, because we belong to him. God is warning us to come out of her " Babylon" before judgement comes

I think you're right, but I also think it's both. A city is nothing without the residents of it. Without them it is desolate and just a place for flora and fauna to take over.

Mystery Babylon is the seat of the false christ, who has put himself above God and demands worship as god. He is the epitome of sinful disobedience and rejection of God, and he and his people dwell in the city from which he rules.

But he also rules over the whole world from that city in that the whole world worships the beast who was, and was not, and was again.

So what are God's people to come out of in this sense, the literal city? I don't think so, I believe the city is the end time representation of apostasy to turn away from God to a false god, to commit adultery and fornication with the false christ, to accept him as the messiah over Yeshua.

IMO, Mystery Babylon is a literal city, but has a spiritual heart, that of the people residing in it. That spirit of antichrist running the city and the world is what we are not to take part in. So I think it is important to define the city and as my other posts on this topic have tried to point out, I think scripture is pretty clear from various perspectives that Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon and the the false messiah who will deceive the blinded of Israel will be that hijacking of Old Testament prophecy to deceive Israel into accepting a man that comes in his own name over Yeshua who came in His Father's name.

[Luther]

2 hours ago, Triton57 said:

There is a lot of symbolism in Revelation for sure, I just think it's important to interpret the figurative with scripture because it's very easy to insert our own ideas into the interpretation of the figurative and veer off course.

However, I also think there is a lot of "literal," though I don't really like using that word, in Revelation and the other prophetic books. For instance, when a period of time is given, I take that at face value and some amazing insights come to light.

In terms of Zechariah 13:8-9, it's not really a precise value in terms of coming up with any kind of literal number, but I don't think it's really trying to make any point other than 2/3 of Israel will be cut off and 1/3 refined. But even this could have other meanings than some outside force attacking and killing 2/3 of Israel.

Think of it in terms of Romans 11 and the root that bears the branches and gives them life. The natural branches will be broken off in unbelief, but they can be grafted back on again just as the wild branches were broken off (died to self) and grafted onto the root, which is Christ. (born again) So you don't die immediately when broken off the root, but you don't gain nutrients anymore and eventually you can't be grafted back on.

John 15:5-6
I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

So the idea of being cut off from the people and dying doesn't have to be synonymous, but remaining in unbelief and going after other gods makes them synonymous from an eternal perspective because without Yeshua our destination is sure. Just as Adam and Eve didn't die the very day they ate the fruit from the tree, even though at that point they now required a root to be grafted back onto in order to live. (Not accounting for the fact that they did indeed die the very day they ate the fruit from God's perspective where a day is as 1,000 years and Adam died when he was 930, just 70 years shy of a "day.")

Prophecy is a very confusing thing to decipher for sure, which is why there are so many views. There are different ways to look at things and my view has changed a lot from when I first started. The more I read and understand scripture in context the more things come to light that fit with the greater narrative, all scripture has to agree with itself. I think the only way we can come to anything close to a consensus is to let scripture interpret scripture, and even then there are many wrong roads we can go down. I think you're right that there's a lot of allegorical, figurative, symbolic language, I just think also that God has also put some literal things in there, and even places where the properly interpreted symbols have literal meanings.

But as the time gets closer it will become more clear, we just need to stick to scripture. I look forward to the time as iron sharpens iron and events unfold that we will all begin to come together in understanding as we each adjust our views to fit reality. I know I'll have a lot of things to change I'm sure, but I'm willing to drop any false view I have in the search for Truth.

Well that's why I enjoy these conversations so much. Scripture compared with scripture. And especially from Old to New Testament. Revelation has a lot of OT parallels for sure. But Revelation 8, Don't really understand. 

There is a reoccurring theme of one third relating to the remnant or believers, and two thirds ( 666) relating to unsaved man. But I don't see that in Rev. 8. Hope someone has thoughts on that. There may be something relevant regarding two thirds of "Israel " cut off, like you said. I realize there are some literal elements in Rev. like the seven churches, and the great day of God's wrath. But not much else. 

I agree 100% that if God is revealing a truth to a believer here and there, it is a matter of time before the whole body receives it. I was part of a ministry very serious in God's word. Before the Bible teacher, Brother Camping went to be with Jesus, he found out about the doctrine of " annihilation" and shared it with many. I was skeptical at first but dove right into his scriptural justification to see what to make of it. I now believe what he shared with his listeners, and I also believe that if anyone studies the scripture they will be in agreement. To me that's just one example of what I would call " progressive revelation".  God reaveals truth in His time. 

[Triton57]

2 hours ago, Luther said:

There is a reoccurring theme of one third relating to the remnant or believers, and two thirds ( 666) relating to unsaved man. But I don't see that in Rev. 8. Hope someone has thoughts on that. There may be something relevant regarding two thirds of "Israel " cut off, like you said. I realize there are some literal elements in Rev. like the seven churches, and the great day of God's wrath. But not much else.

I had recognized the 1/3 aspect in the first four trumpets, but hadn't thought much about the reasoning, though I'm sure there is a reason. Interestingly, Ezekiel 5 shows this same kind of "thirding" related to the judgement of Israel.

Ezekiel 5:1-2
And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause [it] to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the [hair]. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, [and] smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

There seems to be a parallel with 1/3 escaping judgement while the first two parts are burned and killed by the knife. This is more a parallels with Zechariah 13:8-9 though than the wrath of God. Although the circumstances of God's judgement are definitely there. I do tend to take Zechariah to have a focus on natural Israel than a more generic mankind.

There are also several aspects of offerings to the Lord that are "thirded." Numbers 15:6-7 and 28:14 speaks to 1/3 of a hin of oil and wine to be offered with a ram, likewise Ezekiel 46:14, and Nehemiah 10:32 1/3 of a shekel for the service of the house of God.

Now you have me wondering what the reason is for 1/3 of the destruction in God's wrath, I'll have to dwell on that for a bit.

[Luther]

9 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I had recognized the 1/3 aspect in the first four trumpets, but hadn't thought much about the reasoning, though I'm sure there is a reason. Interestingly, Ezekiel 5 shows this same kind of "thirding" related to the judgement of Israel.

Ezekiel 5:1-2
And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause [it] to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the [hair]. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, [and] smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

There seems to be a parallel with 1/3 escaping judgement while the first two parts are burned and killed by the knife. This is more a parallels with Zechariah 13:8-9 though than the wrath of God. Although the circumstances of God's judgement are definitely there. I do tend to take Zechariah to have a focus on natural Israel than a more generic mankind.

There are also several aspects of offerings to the Lord that are "thirded." Numbers 15:6-7 and 28:14 speaks to 1/3 of a hin of oil and wine to be offered with a ram, likewise Ezekiel 46:14, and Nehemiah 10:32 1/3 of a shekel for the service of the house of God.

Now you have me wondering what the reason is for 1/3 of the destruction in God's wrath, I'll have to dwell on that for a bit.

Yes. I think I will also. I always kind of walked away from looking more into it. Thank you for presenting these verses. 

Edited December 23, 2024 by Luther
Added to it

[Diaste]

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

This is one of those verses I'm inclined to take less literal because of the addition of mystērion to the name Babylon. This means a hidden thing, a secret. To say this is literally talking about the ancient city of Babylon seems counter to that, an obvious thing.

Here I agree. There is a non temporal, spiritual backdrop to the idea of Babylon. That seems clear from the text itself.

In Rev 18 we see a great city trading with the world, increasing the wealth of all who trade in lavish fashion. This city is the temporal manifestation of the sin and evil contained in the symbol Babylon.

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

Another thing I've been dwelling on lately are the identities of the 10 horns, not so much the literal identities, but more generally. I believe this is relevant to proper identification because, to your point, who controls the city helps define the city. The 10 horns are first introduced by Daniel in relation to a little horn that comes up among them.

Daniel 7:2-3, 7-8
Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. ... After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

As opposed to John's vision in Revelation 13 where these same 3 animals are combined with the 10-horned beast as part of the Dragon, Daniel's vision has them separate and diverse from each other.

Yes, diverse from the beasts before it.

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

Additionally, the word "before" used in relating the 4th beast to the first 3 is not temporal in nature, qŏḏām is spacial in nature as in front of.

This is how it's used:

"The Hebrew word "qodam" is primarily used as a preposition to denote spatial or temporal precedence. It can mean "before" in terms of time, indicating something that occurs earlier, or "in front of" in terms of space, suggesting a position of prominence or presence. It is often used in the context of being before God or in His presence, highlighting a relationship of reverence and submission."

In the cited verses the context is time, but the idea would be temporal and spatial. As we see in other prophecy there is a linear succession from Babylon to Persia to Greece and then the Diadochi. We also see presence and prominence as Babylon gave way to Medo-Persia, which gave way to Greece in the same time/space.

But just because the word can carry both ideas at the same time, doesn't mean one idea presides over the other and our understanding is complete.

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

 

Given that they are united with the Dragon in John's vision describing the kingdom of the false christ and his false prophet, Daniel's vision must be showing a time before this uniting. We even see described after the destruction of the 4th beast at Christ's coming, that the other 3 beasts lose their dominion but are allowed to continue. This is after they were united with the 4th terrible beast as part of the Dragon.

I think it's an extension of the prophecy of Daniel, for identification, for us to look to Daniel's prophecies for further information. 

That being said, it is possible they could be united. That would have to mean something. If Babylon is the lion, Medo-Persia is the bear, and Greece is the leopard, then those three kingdoms would exist and be united with whomever the 4th beast turns out to be[Islam]. All three of those previous kingdoms are essentially the same. The succeeded one another ruling over the same arena from the same city.

I'm convinced the idea here is where to look and what to look for; the rise of Babylon and whom is in control.

 

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

Daniel 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

To me this would seem to depict likely the first sign we will see of the end, the quartering of power in the world through political agreements such that global governance is consolidated. This is evident in the fact that the 10 horns are 10 kings of kingdoms,

Rev 17 says they are kings with no kingdom and only receive power with the beast.

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

 

 So this would be a region of the world with political alliances of 10 nations, 

I don't agree.

"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings along with the beast. "

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

With the 10-horned beast taking center stage in the prophetic narrative, it seems to me like this is talking of the region of the Middle East since Jerusalem and Israel is central to this narrative.

Indeed.

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

Furthermore, there is a declared ratio of 10:1 in this region, where 10 distinctive horns separate from each other but not dissimilar in size, have a little horn rise up among them. This would seem to indicate in the Middle East region there will be 11 kingdoms involved in this time period. The fact that the little horn plucks 3 of the 10 horns indicates it is more powerful than the 10 and the alliance between the 10 is not destroyed by the little horn plucking 3 of their members.

It seems less of an alliance and more capitulation;

"These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast."

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

So the question is, if Babylon is supposed to be a mystery, does it make sense for it to be literal Babylon? Given what Daniel says, it would seem not.

Both can be true at the same time. We are seeing two aspects. One is the evil in the dark heart of the entity in control of that evil, the other is the physical manifestation glorifying the evil and the entity behind it.  

On 12/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, Triton57 said:

A political alliance of 10 kingdoms in the Middle East will exist where a smaller kingdom will subdue 3 of the surrounding larger kingdoms. This won't destroy the alliance or cause the other 7 horns to destroy the little horn, they will give their power to him.

This fits with the idea that the harlot is a city and that city is Jerusalem because this is made the seat of the false christ when he takes over the temple there. And the inhabitants, the majority of them, will follow after this other god playing the harlot. Indeed they will make the city the center of their false messianic kingdom, believing that prophecy about the Messiah of Israel is being fulfilled in their lifetimes. It is, just not the prophecies they want to be associated with for eternal life.

Then Jerusalem would have to fit all of Rev 18. I don't think one can shoehorn Jerusalem into Rev 18.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 12/22/2024 at 1:57 PM, Triton57 said:

I agree God is going to judge the whole earth, but it's tied to them committing fornication. This is many times in the Old Testament defined as going after other gods and rejecting the one true God. Anyone who does not accept Yeshua before He returns to gather His bride will be under the wrath of God, though some protected through it and refined. This doesn't negate or generalize the idea of Mystery Babylon into anything but a city IMO.

 

Not choosing Jesus means you chose this world. Jesus said no man can love him and THIS EVIL WORLD. 

On 12/22/2024 at 1:57 PM, Triton57 said:

It seems clear to me that Mystery Babylon is a hidden association with apostate Israel in Jerusalem, the only place where the prophets perished and upon which the judgment of all blood spilled by Israel of the messengers God sent them through their history. I think there's a reason why the 8 heads are represented as kings through time and are tied to the mountain upon which Jerusalem sits in Revelation 17. Jerusalem is the harlot riding the beast, sitting on Mount Zion, and going after other gods and killing God's people.

Prophets were killed in many nations and Saints in all nations.

You totally get the 7 Mountains incorrect. It has nothing to do with ONE CITY anywhere, its about a Figurative 7 Headed Beast over Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome the beast that the Church gives a MORTAL WOUND unto. So, the Beast retreats "into the sea" because there is no Israel to Beast over during the Church Age, she is as Dead Men's Bones until 1948. Then after the Rapture the E.U. will Conquer Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region to become the 7th Beast Head. The LAST BEAST is a man who never passes his kingdom on, so its NEVER a Beast Nation and 6 is the number of man hence 666 places added emphasis on THE MAN BEAST. The 8th King is a Demon named Apollyon, he is currently in the bottomless pit, he was placed by Satan over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, (see Dan. 10 this is the Demon who resisted Michael for 21 days IMHO) Greece and Rome, he will be over the Anti-Christ after he is released via the First Woe, THUS.......he was of the 7 and is an 8th (King of the Bottomless Pit). He is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17, Satan is the Red Dragon of Rev 12 and the Anti-Christ is the [Man] Beast of Rev 13. 

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit(Not Satan nor the Man Beast hence hes the Scarlet Beast), and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains(7 Political Powers that ARISE), on which the woman (False Religion) sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings(Not HILLS of a City): five are fallen(Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia & Greece) and one is(Rome), and the other is not yet come(Anti-Christ/Man Beast); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space(42 Months ONLY as a Beast over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region).

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Its not a City, its not Rome, Jerusalem, NYC etc. its 7 Mountains which means POLITICAL POWERS throughout the bible in many places. Rome will return or has as the E.U. the 10 Horns represents COMPLETION, not 10, thus the 10 Kings/Horns means the Old Roman Empire is Reunited as the E.U. and they will sign an AGREEMENT (Covenant) with Israel, but its not what people think, its simply this, they welcome Israel to join the E.U. and this sets everything off. How dare they basically "Gives God's Land Away" !! He thus starts off the 70th week by rapturing the Church, now the 70th week is under way.

Apostate Jerusalem and Apostate Rome via the RCC are both just wrong concepts imho. 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Revelation Man

[Triton57]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

"The Hebrew word "qodam" is primarily used as a preposition to denote spatial or temporal precedence. It can mean "before" in terms of time, indicating something that occurs earlier, or "in front of" in terms of space, suggesting a position of prominence or presence. It is often used in the context of being before God or in His presence, highlighting a relationship of reverence and submission."

In the cited verses the context is time, but the idea would be temporal and spatial. As we see in other prophecy there is a linear succession from Babylon to Persia to Greece and then the Diadochi. We also see presence and prominence as Babylon gave way to Medo-Persia, which gave way to Greece in the same time/space.

But just because the word can carry both ideas at the same time, doesn't mean one idea presides over the other and our understanding is complete.

The issue I found with this way I used to think of it is the context of the whole vision, it takes place at the end just before Christ establishes His kingdom on Earth. In addition to these same for beasts seen in John's vision of the end, the false christ's kingdom, being no longer diverse from each other, but joined together as parts of the Dragon, the context of when this happens seems very clearly tied to Armageddon and the Messianic Kingdom.

Daniel 7:9-11
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Revelation 19:19-21
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Daniel 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

You said, "Babylon is the lion, Medo-Persia is the bear, and Greece is the leopard, then those three kingdoms would exist and be united with whomever the 4th beast turns out to be." But how can this be if the context of their coexistence with the 4th beast is his defeat by Christ at His coming?

Furthermore, Daniel 2 makes it pretty clear that the kingdom of God came with Yeshua's first coming. It's not a kingdom of this world, but a spiritual kingdom that exists in the union of the Spirit of God in each individual inhabitant of the eternal kingdom, wherever they exist. This is often used to associate to the four beasts of Daniel 7, but as I pointed out, their existence is at the end, not in history.

Daniel 2:44-45
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The kingdom of God is not left to any other because the King of it will never die and His kingdom is eternal. It was established in the days of Yeshua's first coming. This is evident in the many statements about the "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" being at hand as Yeshua preached.

And we can see this historically too, that the legs of the feet were strong like iron, but the end of that kingdom were feet and toes mixed with iron and clay. At the end of the Roman Empire, there were attempts to build alliances on marriage to keep things together that failed. And the reason that vision can't be speaking about the end times comes down to what happened when the stone cut without hands (Yeshua) struck the kingdoms of this world to that point in history.

Daniel 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The kingdoms of the statue were utterly destroyed, never to return when the rock struck the feet, and indeed those kingdoms exist only in history and archaeological finds. That whole vision ended in either 476 or 1453 depending on whether one considers the Roman Empire to include the Byzantine or not. Personally, since it did not exist at the time of Christ, I see the Western Roman Empire to be that final feet and toes of the statute in context of the vision.

However, even if one identifies the Byzantine Empire as part of the statue, it does not exist in the end, the only thing from Daniel 2 that continues to the end is the kingdom. For the vision of Daniel 7, all 4 diverse beasts exist together at the same time, these same diverse beasts become united with the Dragon, and 3 of the 4 beasts are allowed to continue for a season after the false christ and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. All these things are related to the end, not history from what I read in prophecy. And the only places where these 4 beasts coexist are in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.

I understand the Babylonian goddess Ishtar was associated with the lion, which was found at the Ishtar gate, and perhaps was a central symbol of Nebuchadnezzar, but many assumptions are required to try and shape Daniel 2 to fit Daniel 7 while Revelation 13 plainly states it and fits with the prophetic narrative to my understanding at this point in time.

Quote

Rev 17 says they are kings with no kingdom and only receive power with the beast.

I believe this has to do with the timing John is seeing in his vision as compared to Daniel related to this connection of Daniel 7 to Revelation 13. In Daniel's vision, the four beasts are distinct and diverse from each other. They stand in front of each other, but are distinct.

Daniel 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.

In John's vision there is one Dragon of which they are all a part.

Revelation 13:1-2
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Where Daniel starts with them diverse, he continues on to what would seem the subjugation of these.

Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Admittedly there is some speculation on my part, but in Daniel's vision, these 10 horns are also 10 kings, and who is a king typically but one who has a kingdom. So before they all unite with the Dragon, they are distinct and there are 10 kings. Then this alliance of 10 kings in the Middle East has 3 of them defeated by one who is given great power and authority. They clearly don't join in and fight the little horn as 10 united horns, rather only 3 are plucked up.

I would then posit that they realize they don't have the power to defeat him and so act appropriately.

Revelation 17:12-17
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So they were 10 kings ruling over 10 kingdoms until the little horn began to defeat them and they gave their power over to the little horn. In return for their allegiance, he will allow them to rule their kingdoms as long as they do not come against him.

This is where the idea that the 10 horns don't really like the little horn, in fact they hate him and his kingdom. That's why they hate the whore, but God prevents them from acting on it until His wrath is complete. Then He will allow the 10 horns to take their revenge and will destroy her.

So in the context of John's vision at the end vs. Daniel's vision just before the end leading up to it, the 10 had a kingdom that was taken away and so they had no kingdom, but the little horn lets them rule their kingdoms again for a short time. At least that's how I see it currently.

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So the question is, if Babylon is supposed to be a mystery, does it make sense for it to be literal Babylon? Given what Daniel says, it would seem not.

Both can be true at the same time. We are seeing two aspects. One is the evil in the dark heart of the entity in control of that evil, the other is the physical manifestation glorifying the evil and the entity behind it.

I agree there are multiple dimensions to Mystery Babylon. It represents the physical kingdom of the false christ, which has global power. Spiritually, the whole world worships the beast and Mystery Babylon is the seat of evil and spiritual wickedness in high places manifest in the end through this kingdom, its false christ, and false prophet. And so the connecting of the spiritual to the physical is all centered in the Middle East, in Israel, in Jerusalem, in the temple built for God but hijacked by the Dragon.

Once this little charade is over, Yeshua will rule the world with a rod of iron from the temple in Jerusalem, in Israel, in the Middle East. And so I believe the jealous Dragon is simply copying God's ultimate plan before it comes to fruition to use a time of great deception to deceive the whole world into accepting him as God before Yeshua comes back and ends the deception at Armageddon when the false christ, false prophet, and Dragon are all cast into the lake of fire and chained for 1,000 years respectively.

[Triton57]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Prophets were killed in m any nations and Saints in all nations.

Luke 11:47-51
Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luke 13:33
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

I've also thought about this, but I'm sure there was some context to this statement by Yeshua. Given that Jerusalem was the seat of authority for the kingdom of Israel, the majority of all judgements were performed there and likewise it would be judged for its unrighteousness in judgements. Regardless, He was making a point that He, like many of the other prophets killed by Israel in history, would be killed in Jerusalem.

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You totally get the 7 Mountains incorrect. It has nothing to do with ONE CITY anywhere, its about a Figurative 7 Headed Beast over Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome the beast that the Church gives a MORTAL WOUND unto. So, the Beast retreats because there is no Israel to Beast over during the Church Age, she is as Dead Men's Bones until 1848. Then after the Rapture the E.U. will Conquer Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region to become the 7th Beast Head.

I get the symbolism of a 7-headed Dragon is figurative and not literal, but the figurative points to literal events and people, places, and things that will be involved in playing out the figurative symbolism represented by the 7-headed Dragon.

What I don't see laid out figuratively is your literal statement that the church will give a mortal head wound to the beast. If I turn the beast into a purely figurative symbol I could make just about anything fit my narrative. However, I see how the little horn of Daniel is connected to the beast of John as well as the man of sin, etc. which all revolve around Yeshua's first warning about the end of the age.

Matthew 24:3-5
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

All the prophecies and warnings are about a literal person deceiving the world in the context of coming in the name and authority of the anointed one, Messiah, Christ. This does not speak to a figurative depiction of a literal kingdom, but a figurative depiction of a literal king of a kingdom, every kingdom has its king just like every city that is not desolate has its inhabitants.

As I mentioned in my last post, Daniel 2 makes it pretty clear that the kingdoms represented in the statute, the last one being the iron/clay feet and toes that matches up with John's 7-headed Dragon and the head that "is," are destroyed when Yeshua establishes His eternal kingdom in the first century and it has grown ever since. The statue? It was found no more, including Rome. Of course it didn't all happen right then and there, just like the rock is still becoming a mountain filling the earth as the Gospel is spread.

I do see the EU and others play a role, but I can't definitively say what of the 3 other beasts of Daniel 7 they might be part of. One thing seems sure based on Yeshua's statement regarding the context of the end and what I see in scripture, the coming of the end of the age will have an ultimate conclusion surrounding a kingdom in the Middle East that is smaller (little horn) than the surrounding kingdoms (10 horns) whose king will establish himself as the anointed Messiah of a little kingdom in the region. The whole world will give their power to him, including the EU, and he will reign over the world in the manner the true Christ will once he is destroyed.

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The LAST BEAST is a man who never passes his kingdom on, so its NEVER a Beast Nation and 6 is the number of man hence 666 places added emphasis on THE MAN BEAST.

What verse are you speaking of? The only one I'm aware of that says this is:

Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

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The 8th King is a Demon named Apollyon, he is currently in the bottomless pit, he was placed by Satan over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, (see Dan. 10 this is the Demo  who resisted Michael for 21 days IMHO) Greece and Rome, he will be over the Anti-Christ after he is released via the First Woe, THUS.......he was of the and is an 8th (King of the Bottomless Pit).

Where is the one place you can go where no matter which direction you walk you are going South? The North pole. Similarly, where is the one place where no matter where you go you can only go up?

Matthew 12:38-40
Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The death of Yeshua was associated with Him going to the heart of the Earth.

Isaiah 14:3-19
And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, [and] the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, [and as] the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

The whole Earth is at rest during the Messianic Kingdom when all the swords are turned to plowshares. And we see this imagery of the dead being stirred at Yeshua's coming and seeing the end of the great Dragon in the grave with them.

Revelation 20:1-3
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

All that to say, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" could very well be speaking of the literal resurrection of the false christ, just as Yeshua's resurrection brought Him out of the bottomless pit, from the heart of the Earth. This explains the mortal wound that is healed, the 7th head becoming the 8th, etc. It seems clear that this event is central to the world worshiping the false christ.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Job 11:8
[It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Psalm 55:15
Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them.

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

Proverbs 9:18
But he knoweth not that the dead [are] there; [and that] her guests [are] in the depths of hell.

Amos 9:2
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Jonah 2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.

We die and are buried and return to the dust so figuratively hell has always been associated with beneath while redemption where God lives is above. While I believe heaven is more higher dimensional than physically located above, perhaps hell is spiritually and literally the heart of the Earth, the bottomless pit, from where our souls will be resurrected from at His coming into our eternal temples.

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He is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17, Satan is the Red Dragon of Rev 12 and the Anti-Christ is the [Man] Beast of Rev 13. 

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit(Not Satan nor the Man Beast hences hes the Scarlet Beast), and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains(7 Political Powers that ARISE), on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings(Not HILLS of a City): five are fallen(Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia & Greece) and one is(Rome), and the other is not yet come(Anti-Christ/Man Beast); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space(42 Months ONLY as a Beast over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region).

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Its not a City, its not Rome, Jerusalem, NYC etc. its 7 Mountains which means POLITICAL POWERS throughout the bible in many places. Rome will return or has as the E.U. the 10 Horns represents COMPLETION, not 10, thus the 10 Kings/Horns means the Old Roman Empire is Reunited as the E.U. and they will sign an AGREEMENT (Covenant) with Israel, but its noy what people think, its simply this, they welcome Israel to join the E.U. and this sets everything off. How dare the basically "Gives God's Land Away" !! He thus starts off the 70th week by rapturing the Church, now the 70th week is under way.

Apostate Jerusalem and Apostate Rome via the RCC are both just wrong concepts imho.

Given that scarlet is a red color, as are flames, and all depictions of this Dragon are associated with the 10 horns, I don't feel comfortable separating any reference from the other. The accuser, Satan, is the Dragon in all cases IMO and gives his power to the beast.

Just like the heads represent kings through time, the 7th head would represent a physical king, who I think will be the man from the line of David who will come to prominence in modern Israel. He will turn the hearts of the people back to God, change the seasons (appointed times) and laws to conform to the strengthened Mosaic Covenant to which the people return, build the temple to minister according to the statutes of the Mosaic Covenant, and deal with any of Israel's enemies that attack her as a result of this development. This covers the 1st seal through the 4th during the first half of the 70th week.

Revelation 17:10
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

I do not believe the prophesied Gog/Magog occurs until Revelation 20:7-10, the only other place Gog and Magog are mentioned, but that doesn't mean an apparent attack that everyone will associate with this won't happen. It is here I think that the 7th head receives his mortal wound that is healed. The mortal wound sends him to the bottomless pit with the rest of the dead, but upon his resurrection (strong delusion God sends that they believe a lie) he ascends from the bottomless pit and becomes the 8th head.

Daniel 11:44-12:1
But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Note that just after the death of the king, whom the kings of the North and South attacked and the king who defeated Egypt and two other enemies to the North and East (3 horns?), that the unparalleled time mirrored in Jeremiah 30:4-7, Matthew 24:15-29, and Mark 13:14-23 takes place. It is this same time Yeshua pointed to Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation takes place.

So to me it seems that there is a narrative of a specific man pretending to be the messiah, fulfilling Old Testament prophecies to do so, and who dies and is resurrected. When he is, he enters the temple he built and stops the daily sacrifice and sets himself up as God in the temple, the abomination of desolation. It is at that point the unparalleled time of great tribulation begins because he establishes a new covenant that doesn't require the daily sacrifice anymore (Jeremiah 31:31-34). He then begins the process of purging anything that isn't holy according to his standards from Jerusalem and the broader area. Only those who worship him are holy in his book, which is why God is telling those who hear His voice to run for the mountains.

IMO, these prophecies are describing the actions of a specific man, the man of sin. The heads represented kingdoms as you said, which had varied kings through their history, but the final heads stand out as speaking of a very short and specific time when one specific king is in focus.

As the heads represent political kings, I believe the mountains represent a physical place over which they ruled. Israel is the apple of God's eye and Jerusalem is the capital of Israel that sits on Mount Zion. I think the fact that the mountains and heads are associated with each other indicates the same mountain through history that the 6 kings ruled over it politically.

Revelation 17-18 introduce the harlot, which is that great city. I believe this is the religious aspect of the inhabitants of that great city Jerusalem that was politically controlled by outside nations historically. However, the population of Jerusalem was the religious center of the Hebrew faith, though many times through history in apostasy.

So we see the confluence of the two in the end, but just because the head of the Dragon was historically external kingdoms doesn't mean the 7th and 8th heads have to be. These are distinct from the previous heads, separated by time from them similar to how the 70th week is separated from the first 69 weeks. What's important is understanding that the head is part of the Dragon. In the end, God is going to allow him to introduce his great deception and just like Job will try the children of Israel in their blindness.

The political head of the Dragon will be led by the little horn, the king of a deceived little kingdom who is riding on the back of the Dragon. They think their king is the promised Messiah and as a Dragon in sheep's clothing, he appears to.

The religious city riding on the back of the Dragon will have given the crown to the little horn to be their king and defeat their enemies and bring them back to God. But in their apostasy going after yet another false christ, or false god, she will play the harlot and in her zealous and fervent worship drink the blood of the saints who refuse the lie and stand for truth and remain faithful to God.

That's how I view it at least, the 7 mountains are Jerusalem through time and the 10 horns will not like the Jerusalem where Israel has taken full control, but will be powerless to do anything about it, so will capitulate and bide their time.

I think the EU will be powerless through all of this and submit to the little horn just like everyone else. I expect as time goes on and the "bad is good" topsy-turvey nature of the past decades gets overturned, their legitimacy will wane. There's a vocal minority that have been causing havoc in the world and I actually think this is part of the plan of the mystery of iniquity to build up righteous anger in the silent majority such that when things start to be turned back around again, most of the world will cheer, and rightly so. However, I think we need to be cautious about letting our emotions overwhelm our rationality and soberly watch what unfolds.

If I'm right, we should see a continued light shining on evil and exposing it, the silent majority will become more vocal and justice will seem to return somewhat. The false christ that comes on the scene would play right into this and begin his reign actually endorsing a return to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This is because the Dragon knows Israel is blind and they were blinded before they noticed any of the prophecies he will use to deceive them being fulfilled. The more people learn about the reality of the Middle East, the more they will side with Israel, and I'm right there with them. The vocal minority make it seem otherwise, but I think they will get quieter as time goes on because their purpose, whether they know it or not, is to bring a chaotic cacophony that makes the sane of the world confused and desire a return to sanity. That's when the one causing the chaos makes the insanity stop and everyone things they are the answer to the problem. It's not an uncommon tactic by evil people to do this, but we're looking at a grander scale thousands of years in the making. The deception has to be great.

[luigi]

Ezekiel 17:4 metaphorically describes Old Babylon as a land of traffick (business), set in a city of merchants.

As such, I then think modern Babylon the Great represents a land with a great amount of traffick (business), set in a city with a great many merchants

Ezekiel 17:4 He cropped off the top of his young twigs, and carried it into a land of traffick: he set it in a city of merchants.