Birth Pangs & First Fruits

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, examples would be good. Some of the differences in the list are subtle.

I have been in fellowships where members stumbled over metaphors, not understanding things like Christ being the Good Shepherd as well as the Lamb of God, or the Holy Spirit being symbolised by a dove, wind, fire, water, and oil, and spoken of as a seal, and imparted by the breath of Jesus.

Speaking of the Shepherd and Lamb, don'tcha love Rev 7:17  "For the Lamb . . . shall shepherd them"?

[WilliamL]

On 12/22/2024 at 4:58 PM, AdHoc said:

Good question. May I give my opinion. The Woman of Revelation 12 is not the Church. She is New Jerusalem and mother of US ALL (Gal.4:26).

OK, good starting point: the Woman of Rev. 12 is not the Virgin-Bride Church. However, neither is she --

On 12/22/2024 at 5:11 PM, Vine Abider said:

a composite of all God's people, hence, synonymous with the new Jerusalem

-- because nowhere does Scripture say, nor suggest, any such thing.

Remember, God made man "in His image, male AND female." Gen. 1:27 So before there was a human being, there was a Divine Feminine. Long before the time of Christ, Hebrew sages acknowledged this. But Christian theologians pointedly ignore this.

Like any woman, the Divine Woman has appeared in many different garments, each expressing her "mood" at the time. In proverbs, Solomon personified her as Wisdom. In Ezekiel, the prophet spoke of her, "thy [Israel's] mother," as "a lioness," and "a vine in thy blood." Ezek. 19:2, 10

The Divine Feminine, called by the Hebrew sages the Shekhinah, had her original manifestation from the very beginning:

Marriage is the union of a male and a female. The primordial pattern of the male-female union did not begin with Adam and Eve, but rather with the Creator and His Creation. That pattern originated with a separation out of primordial, limitless Divinity of a limited part thereof; because absolutely nothing else than Divinity existed before that separation. Since that event, the Creator’s sole work has been to perfect that lesser part, and to bring it back into union with Himself. This entire purposeful process –

Transcendent Divine Wholeness → separation → perfecting of that having been separated → Holy (Re-)union/Marriage

– set off a Chain of Events (Hebrew: Hishtalsheluth) of this same pattern being repeatedly manifested over and over again in Creation, in increasing stages of unity, up until the fully sanctified Reunion is able to be completed.

The next stage in this marital Chain of Events will be the return of Christ for His Bride, the Church, in order to consummate a spiritual marital union in heaven:

Revelation 19:7 “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give Him [‘the Lord God’] the glory: for the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted that she might be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 And he said unto me, “Write: Blessed are the ones having been called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

But even this holy union will only be another stage of perfection in the Chain of Events. For during the Millennium, the heavenly New Jerusalem will be being “prepared as a numphē/betrothed woman adorned for her husband.” Rev. 21:2 That more highly-exalted stage of marital union will not be attained until after the Millennium has been completed. Earlier stages have already taken place, although they have not yet been perfected; these will be the subjects of Parts 3 - 6. ALL of these types of marital, male-female unions must be perfected together in one in order for the ultimate marriage of the Creator with His Creation to be completed. (Because for the perfection of the whole to be achieved, every part of that whole must also be perfected.)

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/3164-marital-union-in-heaven-and-in-creation-part-2-the-origin-of-marriage/

Unless one rejects the willfully- and woefully-limited view of the Divine Feminine long held by traditional Christianity, and accepts the more primordial view held by the Hebrew sages, one will not be able to comprehend the Woman of Rev. 12, nor her offspring the Manchild.

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/22/2024 at 5:20 PM, Vine Abider said:

It does seem like the man child is for dominion, since by their authority (which is vested in Christ's sacrifice & victory) they are responsible for casting the dragon out.  First fruits on the other hand, if I reason the typology correct, are taken to the house for enjoyment.

So I don't know if the man child overcomers and the first fruit overcomers are the same, but it is interesting to me that both seem to be mentioned together in Romans 8:22-23.

As creation has progressed toward its ultimate God-given purpose, the Shekhinah has manifested new spirit-forms. In a time soon to come, Revelation 12’s Manchild, a spirit-form of latter-day tzaddikim/righteous ones, will be spiritually born of the Shekhinah; just as previously were, spiritually, the 12 sons of Jacob and Christ’s 12 Apostles; from which are descended the nation of Israel and the Church, respectively. Each such spiritual birth is an ascent to a higher level of spirituality; that is, to a becoming closer to God. The Manchild will collectively have a role in the Millennial Age akin to, but elevated above, the earlier roles of the 12 sons of Israel and the 12 Apostles of Christ.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Revelation 12:5 And she [the Woman/Shekhinah] brought forth a Manchild who is about to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up unto God…

In the Book of Revelation, there are three twelves in the New Jerusalem: 12 gates named after the 12 sons of Israel; 12 foundations named after the 12 Apostles; and 12 fruits of the Tree of Life. I give it as my opinion that these as-yet unnamed 12 fruits will be named after the 12 primary tzaddakim of the Manchild ministry. Because the Tree of Life represents eternal life, which is the promised gift of God to mankind when Christ returns; at which time –

Romans 8:21 …the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

This deliverance will be the third in a sequence. 1) Israel was delivered from the bondage of the flesh: slavery. 2) The Church is delivered from the bondage of the soul: sin. John 8:34-36 3) The chosen/elect ones of the soon-coming resurrection will be delivered from “the bondage of corruption”: mortality.

1 Corinthians 15:52 … For a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2828-the-shekhinah-and-the-manchild/

 

[Michael37]

21 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

As creation has progressed toward its ultimate God-given purpose, the Shekhinah has manifested new spirit-forms.

This seems to align with Kabbalistic Teaching, some of which deviates from Biblical Theology. 

[WilliamL]

44 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

This seems to align with Kabbalistic Teaching, some of which deviates from Biblical Theology. 

Pretty vague statement. Depends, I suppose, upon which "some" you are referring.

Messianic Jewish friends of mine say that some of Paul's teachings deviate from Tanakh teachings!

So much of  one's understanding will depend upon the length and the breadth and the depth of one's study and meditation. The formulation of Christian doctrine began at least 2000 years after the formulation of Hebraic doctrine, so I place a lot of value on the latter. But only a scant few Christian theologians do. Most even miss the essential and profound teachings of Hebrews 9, for example, because it was written from a Hebraic perspective to Hebraic believers.

Matthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

Edited December 25, 2024 by WilliamL
added Matt. 13 quote

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Pretty vague statement. Depends, I suppose, upon which "some" you are referring.

Messianic Jewish friends of mine say that some of Paul's teachings deviate from Tanakh teachings!

So much of  one's understanding will depend upon the length and the breadth and the depth of one's study and meditation. The formulation of Christian doctrine began at least 2000 years after the formulation of Hebraic doctrine, so I place a lot of value on the latter. But only a scant few Christian theologians do. Most even miss the essential and profound teachings of Hebrews 9, for example, because it was written from a Hebraic perspective to Hebraic believers.

Matthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

How would you explain the phrase "new spirit-forms" in a Biblical Theology lesson?

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

As creation has progressed toward its ultimate God-given purpose, the Shekhinah has manifested new spirit-forms. In a time soon to come, Revelation 12’s Manchild, a spirit-form of latter-day tzaddikim/righteous ones, will be spiritually born of the Shekhinah; just as previously were, spiritually, the 12 sons of Jacob and Christ’s 12 Apostles; from which are descended the nation of Israel and the Church, respectively. Each such spiritual birth is an ascent to a higher level of spirituality; that is, to a becoming closer to God. The Manchild will collectively have a role in the Millennial Age akin to, but elevated above, the earlier roles of the 12 sons of Israel and the 12 Apostles of Christ.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Revelation 12:5 And she [the Woman/Shekhinah] brought forth a Manchild who is about to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up unto God…

In the Book of Revelation, there are three twelves in the New Jerusalem: 12 gates named after the 12 sons of Israel; 12 foundations named after the 12 Apostles; and 12 fruits of the Tree of Life. I give it as my opinion that these as-yet unnamed 12 fruits will be named after the 12 primary tzaddakim of the Manchild ministry. Because the Tree of Life represents eternal life, which is the promised gift of God to mankind when Christ returns; at which time –

Romans 8:21 …the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

This deliverance will be the third in a sequence. 1) Israel was delivered from the bondage of the flesh: slavery. 2) The Church is delivered from the bondage of the soul: sin. John 8:34-36 3) The chosen/elect ones of the soon-coming resurrection will be delivered from “the bondage of corruption”: mortality.

1 Corinthians 15:52 … For a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2828-the-shekhinah-and-the-manchild/

 

 

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Pretty vague statement. Depends, I suppose, upon which "some" you are referring.

Messianic Jewish friends of mine say that some of Paul's teachings deviate from Tanakh teachings!

So much of  one's understanding will depend upon the length and the breadth and the depth of one's study and meditation. The formulation of Christian doctrine began at least 2000 years after the formulation of Hebraic doctrine, so I place a lot of value on the latter. But only a scant few Christian theologians do. Most even miss the essential and profound teachings of Hebrews 9, for example, because it was written from a Hebraic perspective to Hebraic believers.

Matthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

Every one of us has a limit. I could very well have reached my limit, both natural and what the Lord gives. I could have missed the whole plot, and, as you say, western theology limits itself to what is said in the holy Chronicles. I also don't want to apologize because if I am limited, it is how the Lord wants it. But, in my limitedness I make the following observations:
1. All religions that want to claim extra revelation go to an authority outside the Bible. Whether it is a claim of additional revelation because one thinks like a Hebrew, or a specially developed university technique, or an additional book to supplement the Bible, these "illumined" ones cannot come to their conclusions with the bible alone.
2. Those who dare to use the Bible alone also hit walls. Very few are the men who admit that they have reached the limit of their intellect and heaveny light. The tendency is, when things don't line up, is to make a quick deviation into the allegorical. And then, ignoring 2nd Peter 1:20, they insert their "private" interpretation.

I was encourage by your choice of scripture above because our Lord Jesus was talking about Jews there. And later He applied this devastating judgment on their most learned ones - the Pharisees. It was a case, He said, of the blind leading the blind.

I have my limits. Scripture is written by the greatest mind of the universe. It is complicated. But when it comes to the constellation of Revelation 12,, we find it three more times in scripture. A tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31 - if I interpret scripture with scripture ONLY. So, the Olive Tree of Romans 11 is relatively simple to deduce. Christ, the Holy One and a King is the root. Scripture says who the branches are and so, based on no other outside input, I can say that the Olive Tree represents Christ's Kingdom in this age with Israel removed and under chastisement.

Galatians confirms this as all three seeds of Abraham are revealed, yet antagonists. Christ, the single Seed, opposed by the flesh, the Church being perfected by the Spirit, and Israel trying to get perfection by Law are brefly antagonists. But scripture upholds the end result and says that New Jerusalem from above is "mother of us all".

In the Great Tribulation, the constellation is slightly improved as the Jewish Remnant is introduced. They "keep the commandments of God" and so fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5 - setting the stage for God to restore Israel. The constellation is Overcomer in heaven, indifferent Christian in a wilderness and the with the Mother and the Jewish side. That all in the last 1260 days of this age.

Then, with Christ having subdued God's enemies by the end of the Millennium, New Jerusalem is consummated. Christ is central and supplies the light of the City. the Church are the wall which keeps the City for a Holy God. The Jews, fully restored, do that which they did in the Millennium, vetting those who have access to God (Zech.14:16). And thus, the four mentions of of a constellation of Christ, Church and Jew SEPARATE but cooperating in the Kingdom show the progression of God's Garden of Fellowship - Eden developed to a City.

All this is in the wording, grammar and councils found in the Bible and needs no outside light, special revelation, culture advantage or advanced intellect. I don't say it is simple, but the resources for finding the meaning are available in the Word alone.

[Revelation Man]

On 12/21/2024 at 2:22 PM, Vine Abider said:

One last thought/question: Could it be that the man child and the first fruits are referring to the same group of overcomers?

 

The proper translation is "Male Child". The Child is Jesus, the Dragon sought to kill the child via King Herod, so much so Joseph & Mary had to flee unto Egypt. The Woman is Israel, the Church is not here during the 70t week. 

Israel repents after the 70th week starts hence the they are the First Fruits of the Fathers Bride Israel, we the Church are the First Fruits of the Bride of Christ, all Harvests do not come in at the same time. We are the Barley Harvest, which always came in before the Wheat Harvest, and Barley does not have to be "crushed" in order to be sifted & harvested, Wheat has to be crushed before it can be sifted & harvested. As a matter of fact the very word tribulation comes from a Greek word that describes a machine that crushes wheat, the Tribulum.

Notice the 144,000 (a CODE for the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 which has to be 5 million Men, Women & Children, just like the 10 Female virgins represents ALL men, women and children who are Christians) have "The Fathers name" on their foreheads, they are the Fathers Bride we are the Bride of Christ, Jacob had two brides, Rachel the preferred and Leah the forced bride.

[Vine Abider]

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The proper translation is "Male Child". The Child is Jesus, the Dragon sought to kill the child via King Herod, so much so Joseph & Mary had to flee unto Egypt. The Woman is Israel, the Church is not here during the 70t week. 

Israel repents after the 70th week starts hence the they are the First Fruits of the Fathers Bride Israel, we the Church are the First Fruits of the Bride of Christ, all Harvests do not come in at the same time. We are the Barley Harvest, which always came in before the Wheat Harvest, and Barley does not have to be "crushed" in order to be sifted & harvested, Wheat has to be crushed before it can be sifted & harvested. As a matter of fact the very word tribulation comes from a Greek word that describes a machine that crushes wheat, the Tribulum.

Notice the 144,000 (a CODE for the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 which has to be 5 million Men, Women & Children, just like the 10 Female virgins represents ALL men, women and children who are Christians) have "The Fathers name" on their foreheads, they are the Fathers Bride we are the Bride of Christ, Jacob had two brides, Rachel the preferred and Leah the forced bride.

Gosh - so many reasons why Jesus Himself does not fit this well at all.  I think the posts related to this are back on page one and two (please see posts by  @AdHoc and me there on this).

[Dennis1209]

On 12/22/2024 at 5:50 PM, AdHoc said:

I would say that his attempt to make New Jerusalem literal is the place we disagree most.

I have been following along quietly as a church mouse. I wanted to give a lengthy response in support of @Marilyn C views. But I am not out to change anyone’s dogmatic views. Plus, my monthly allotment of cyber ink has expired.

I have one question, though: Do I understand correctly? Do you believe the New Jerusalem coming to earth is symbolic-figurative and not literal?