Selective Rapture

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, Locust said:

i'll let you the thought of a cross member if you realize it was not up near the top of the shaft ,but down low .about 3-4 feet up from the bottom end .

Why is this detail significant?  

16 minutes ago, Locust said:

its something I know about because I have stood poles in pole barn construction . the reason for it becomes obvious when a man is attached to one side of the pole. as soon as the pole with man is raised it flips , the man that was nailed on looking  upward would then be looking at the dirt . standing the thing up is hard enough but to put hands on flesh and force the thing up erect , very difficult . the cross bar down low is a handle for two men, a way to keep the weight on the upward side .

So, to be clear, you believe Jesus was nailed to a pole because of your experience with pole barns?? Really??

How come there are NO poles rather than crosses?  Do you have any examples of Jesus on a pole, like the RCC?  Or even off a pole, like evangelicals have?

[FreeGrace]

15 minutes ago, Locust said:

I am saying no crosses were used 

OK, here is the defining moment for you:  so what?  What does that prove?

[WilliamL]

On 1/14/2025 at 5:18 AM, FreeGrace said:

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all say there will be a (singular) resurrection for the saved and unsaved.  

Only when you read that into the texts. By themselves, they say no such thing.

On 1/14/2025 at 5:18 AM, FreeGrace said:

1 Cor 15:23 is very clear that the resurrection of the saved (those who belong to Him) will be "when He comes", indicating the Second Advent (Heb 9:28).

The 1 Cor. passage says "at His Parousia/Presence," not "at His coming." That Presence will last all throughout the End Times, and not just take place on one day.

The Heb. 9 passage says "when He comes out the second time," speaking of his second coming out of the Most Holy Place. His first coming out of the Most Holy Place took place on the same day He ascended to, and then descended from, heaven on Resurrection Sunday. Which was NOT the time of His "First Advent." Get the context right.

You whole thesis requires the denial of the resurrection from death, and the ascent to heaven, of the Two Witnesses of Revelation, which blow up your doctrine.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore when Jesus took the sour wine, He said "It has been finished." And having bowed the head, He yielded up the spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

International Standard Version
After Jesus had taken the wine, he said, "It is finished." Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.

Strong's Lexicon for "gave up", "released" "yielded up"

 

 

paradidómi: To deliver, to hand over, to betray, to entrust

Original Word: παραδίδωμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paradidómi
Pronunciation: pah-rah-DEE-doh-mee
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad-id'-o-mee)
Definition: To deliver, to hand over, to betray, to entrust
Meaning: I hand over, pledge, hand down, deliver, commit, commend, betray, abandon.

The obvious point is that Jesus dismissed His own spirit.  He did not die from crucifixion, but rather by His own actions.  He left on His own terms, since had already completed the mission He came for.

  In your last paragraph in your post above what you posted @FreeGrace  I do not like it at all because this is not what happened. This is not what the scripture says. All the versions of Bibles say that  Jesus lean his head and died. Another way to say that someone died it is to say that they give up the Spirit or they gave up the gost, the unseen man who was living in their body. It indicates that they were not struggle, or drawn, or decapitated or thrashed with the sword fataly wounded. Jesus surrender to what was coming to him the inevitable death. To be offered to drink the sour wine it was the sign that he was about to die and that it was the final wish of someone in his place. 

Jesus would have died no matter what. Because he came for that reason to die in the hands of the Gentiles and his enemies the High Priest. It was prophesied that the Priesthood will put him to death. Why you speak against that. And used a word that is not found in the scripture to argue your point. This word you choose is unbiblical. By your own postings. why you speak against the people who are trying to help you. Why you give them to drink sour wine. The way you put it can be classified as heresy. That Jesus did not died in the hands of his enemies. 

Why Jesus prayed that God forgive them for knowing not what they are doing. 

[Locust]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Why is this detail significant?  

So, to be clear, you believe Jesus was nailed to a pole because of your experience with pole barns?? Really??

How come there are NO poles rather than crosses?  Do you have any examples of Jesus on a pole, like the RCC?  Or even off a pole, like evangelicals have?

it seems you ask questions before you have read the whole posting 

[Locust]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, here is the defining moment for you:  so what?  What does that prove?

Jesus did not die on a cross, why do you's keep putting him on one?

[other one]

4 hours ago, Locust said:

then you have a problem . to hang a man on a cross they live afew days .its described as being a prolong torture  . To make the torture last longer a cross bar would be used, arms stretched out left and right .

braking the legs does little to shorten how long the man can stay alive as the effects on the diaphragm are different . its only when the arms are put above the head that the diaphragm falters . air can be taken in yet its hard to exhale.

 

 

Remember, that Pilot was marveled that Jesus was already dead when Joseph asked for his body.   We need to also remember he was beaten half to death before crucified.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

FreeGrace said:

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all say there will be a (singular) resurrection for the saved and unsaved.  

Only when you read that into the texts. By themselves, they say no such thing.

Each verse is clear about there being a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved.

So, what do you think each verse says?

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

The 1 Cor. passage says "at His Parousia/Presence," not "at His coming." That Presence will last all throughout the End Times, and not just take place on one day.

Except "when He comes" refers to the Second Coming, as Heb 9:28 says.  

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

The Heb. 9 passage says "when He comes out the second time," speaking of his second coming out of the Most Holy Place. His first coming out of the Most Holy Place took place on the same day He ascended to, and then descended from, heaven on Resurrection Sunday. Which was NOT the time of His "First Advent." Get the context right.

Your description is dizzying.  Where do you get your info from?

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Please prove that the red words don't refer to the First Advent and the blue words don't refer to the Second Advent.

Feel free to exegete the verse.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

You whole thesis requires the denial of the resurrection from death, and the ascent to heaven, of the Two Witnesses of Revelation, which blow up your doctrine.

You're going to have to explain yourself because what you say isn't true at all.  

How in the world could my view be a denial of Christ's resurrection???  Or His ascension to heaven??

And what do the 2 witnesses have to do with the Second Advent?  I'll bet you think they will be resurrected after the 3.5 days.  Yes, their bodies will rise from the dead and ascend to heaven a second time, but there is NO evidence that they received glorified immortal bodies.  So don't assume they do.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

  In your last paragraph in your post above what you posted @FreeGrace  I do not like it at all because this is not what happened.

Doesn't matter what one likes or not.  That is what the Bible says.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is not what the scripture says. All the versions of Bibles say that  Jesus lean his head and died.

Sad, but you really seem serious.  So, here are a variety of verses that refute your claim.

New International Version
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

English Standard Version
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Berean Standard Bible
When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished.” And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore when Jesus took the sour wine, He said "It has been finished." And having bowed the head, He yielded up the spirit.

King James Bible
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Legacy Standard Bible 
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Christian Standard Bible
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then bowing his head, he gave up his spirit.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” Then bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. 

American Standard Version
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.
English Revised Version
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

International Standard Version
After Jesus had taken the wine, he said, "It is finished." Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.

Majority Standard Bible
When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, ?It is finished.? And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

NET Bible
When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, "It is completed!" Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 
New Heart English Bible
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished." He bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
As soon as Jesus had taken the wine, He said, "It is finished." And then, bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.
World English Bible
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 

Your claim has been refuted by reality.
 

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Another way to say that someone died it is to say that they give up the Spirit or they gave up the gost, the unseen man who was living in their body.

Only if words don't really mean anything to you.  What Jesus did was what HE DID.  The voice is active, which means He performed the action of the verb.  

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

It indicates that they were not struggle, or drawn, or decapitated or thrashed with the sword fataly wounded.

It has nothing to do with any of that.  He means He RELEASED His own spirit, because His mission on earth was compete.  He had nothing more to do.

John 10:17 - The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life —only to take it up again.

18 - No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

From Jesus Himself.  Your argument is with Him and His words.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 The way you put it can be classified as heresy. That Jesus did not died in the hands of his enemies.

Jesus Himself said His life was in His hands.  But you can believe what you want.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Why Jesus prayed that God forgive them for knowing not what they are doing. 

Because they didn't understand.  But what does that have to do with your argument against what Jesus said in John 10 and on the cross?

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Locust said:

it seems you ask questions before you have read the whole posting 

So it seems you can't answer my question.  Got it.  That's ok.  I didn't really expect one, since I can't imagine why pole vs cross is quite irrelevant.