Annihilationism

[Who me]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That is the view of atheists.  So they believe there are no consequences after one dies.

The Bible speaks of resurrection frequently.  To your question, the definition of "resurrection" means to come back from the dead.

iow, we know from James 2:26 that physical dead is when the soul/spirit leaves the body.  "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

So, a resurrection is when the soul/spirit returns to the physical body.  There are many examples of this in the Bible, 2 in the OT and many in the NT.

Gen 2:7 describes how God created (bara) and made (asah) Adam, the first human being.  He began with the physical (physiological) body, from the chemicals in the ground.  Then He breathed into the body the "breath of life", which is the immaterial soul/spirit complex.  It was at this time that the body/soul-spirit became a "living soul" or human being.  

That means a body without the soul/spirit is not a human being.  It is a shell.  Science is able to keep bodies without the soul/spirit physiologically alive.  But the "person" isn't there any more.

The lights are on, but nobody's home.

 

Thank you for your response  and for confirming that the poster has the same views as an atheist.

 

Maybe you should respond directly to the poster.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, Who me said:

Thank you for your response  and for confirming that the poster has the same views as an atheist.

You're very welcome.

5 hours ago, Who me said:

Maybe you should respond directly to the poster.

My posts are directed to comments.  If the other poster engages with me, I will respond.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

You're very welcome.

My posts are directed to comments.  If the other poster engages with me, I will respond.

That's fair and squared. 

[DeighAnn]

 Jesus remains faithful but as for 'men'...sometimes what they once possessed, they can lost.

Hebrew 6
4 {It is} Impossible for to those once having been enlightened, having tasted then of the gift heavenly, and partakers having become of [the] Spirit Holy, 

5 and [the] goodness having tasted of God's word, [the] power also [of the] coming age

6 and then having fallen away again to restore [them] to repentance, crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting [Him} to open shame



Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. / Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.



2 Peter 2:20-22
If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. / It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. / Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”


1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin. There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin.


Ezekiel 18:24
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.





 

[Dennis1209]

I do not see the Bible teaching annihilationism for fallen angels or lost human souls; quite the contrary. Apparently, our Lord desired two families: a spiritual family and a flesh-and-blood family. Both were created with free will and everlasting life; the question is where it will be spent. I think we can rightly call the angels our older siblings in the family of God.

Adam and we, by extension, were given the breath of life (a living soul), kingship, and dominion over the earth and nowhere else (Gen. 2:7, Isa. 45:12, Job 20:4, 22:8).

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [Emphasis mine]

To kill the soul: Divine judgment. (also see Matt 16:21; 17:23; Mark 9:31; Luke 9:22).

To destroy: Be lost spiritually, ruin, destined for destruction, not annihilate.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [Lake of Fire is everlasting-forever, no annihilation here]

When Jesus repeats Himself, it is for emphasis and to draw our attention to it, not to miss the point. Holy, holy, holy (Isa. 6:3, Rev. 4:8), He that hath an ear (seven times to the seven churches in Revelation). Do not be deceived (four times in Matt. 24), and the “worm” (Mark 9:44, 46, 48).

Mark 9:48 (KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The words where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched (v. 48) are taken from Isa. 66:24. The imagery had nevertheless apparently already begun to be applied to eternal torment (Judith 16:17).^[1]

¹⁷       Woe to the nations that rise up against my people!

The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment;

he will send fire and worms into their flesh;

they shall weep in pain forever. ^[2]

[Echo] James 5:3 (KJV) Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

ANNĪHILA´TION, n. The act of reducing to nothing or non-existence; or the act of destroying the form or combination of parts under which a thing exists, so that the name can no longer be applied to it.

2. The state of being reduced to nothing.^[3]

 

I do not see annihilation as a Biblical concept.

 

---

^[1] Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament, Second Edition. (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2014), 152.

^[2] The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Jdt 16:17.

^[3] Noah Webster, Noah Webster’s First Edition of An American Dictionary of the English Language. (Anaheim, CA: Foundation for American Christian Education, 2006).

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 Jesus remains faithful but as for 'men'...sometimes what they once possessed, they can lost.

Does this mean salvation can be lost?  

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hebrew 6
4 {It is} Impossible for to those once having been enlightened, having tasted then of the gift heavenly, and partakers having become of [the] Spirit Holy, 

5 and [the] goodness having tasted of God's word, [the] power also [of the] coming age

6 and then having fallen away again to restore [them] to repentance, crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting [Him} to open shame

This is not about loss of salvation.  It is about the fact that those who drift toward the law will not be restored to repentance.  That has nothing to do with salvation.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. / Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

This was only applicable during Jesus' earthly ministry.  Check the context.  Jews were ascribing Jesus' miracles to Satan.  The miracles came from the Holy Spirit.  So, basically, they were calling the miracles from the Holy Spirit as being from Satan.  

iow, these Jews were SO NEGATIVE towards Jesus as Messiah, they would NEVER believe in Him.  

These Jews SAW the miracles and still refused to believe in Him.  

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

2 Peter 2:20-22
If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. / It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. / Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

It is an error to misunderstand "final condition" as "end of life" or "where they will be after death".

The majority of English translations have:  "become worse to them than the first" or "than the beginning".  So it refers simply to "life after returning to entangling again in the corruption of the world".

The point is about God's divine discipline, per Heb 12:11.  It will be painful for those who return to the corruption of the world.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin. There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin.

This refers to "the sin unto death" as Paul indicated in 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (euphemism for physical death).  God's discipline began with weakness, progressed to sickness, and culminated in physical death.  Examples, 1 Cor 5:5, Acts 5:1-10, etc.

God takes home some of His children who refuse to cooperate.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Ezekiel 18:24
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.

This isn't about spiritual death at all.  It is about physical death.  See above.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Here is absolute proof that salvation cannot be lost.  I ask anyone who thinks so to address these 2 verses and show me where my error is.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, believing and having (possessing) are in the same tense, which means they occur at the same time.  So Jesus' words here prove that the possession of eternal life occurs WHEN a person  believes in Christ.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here, we learn WHO gives the gift of eternal life; Jesus Himself.  And He tells us the RESULT of being given eternal life, which occurs WHEN a person believes in Him:  they shall never perish.

This is an ironclad promise by Jesus Himself about those who have received eternal life.

These 2 verses prove that none of the verses above them can refer to loss of salvation.

So, after seeing these 2 verses, those who STILL believe that salvation can be lost are in disagreement with what Jesus taught.

[FreeGrace]

49 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I do not see the Bible teaching annihilationism for fallen angels or lost human souls; quite the contrary. Apparently, our Lord desired two families: a spiritual family and a flesh-and-blood family. Both were created with free will and everlasting life; the question is where it will be spent. I think we can rightly call the angels our older siblings in the family of God.

Adam and we, by extension, were given the breath of life (a living soul), kingship, and dominion over the earth and nowhere else (Gen. 2:7, Isa. 45:12, Job 20:4, 22:8).

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [Emphasis mine]

To kill the soul: Divine judgment. (also see Matt 16:21; 17:23; Mark 9:31; Luke 9:22).

To destroy: Be lost spiritually, ruin, destined for destruction, not annihilate.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [Lake of Fire is everlasting-forever, no annihilation here]

When Jesus repeats Himself, it is for emphasis and to draw our attention to it, not to miss the point. Holy, holy, holy (Isa. 6:3, Rev. 4:8), He that hath an ear (seven times to the seven churches in Revelation). Do not be deceived (four times in Matt. 24), and the “worm” (Mark 9:44, 46, 48).

Mark 9:48 (KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The words where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched (v. 48) are taken from Isa. 66:24. The imagery had nevertheless apparently already begun to be applied to eternal torment (Judith 16:17).^[1]

¹⁷       Woe to the nations that rise up against my people!

The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment;

he will send fire and worms into their flesh;

they shall weep in pain forever. ^[2]

[Echo] James 5:3 (KJV) Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

ANNĪHILA´TION, n. The act of reducing to nothing or non-existence; or the act of destroying the form or combination of parts under which a thing exists, so that the name can no longer be applied to it.

2. The state of being reduced to nothing.^[3]

Very well said!

49 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I do not see annihilation as a Biblical concept.

You do not because it is not a biblical concept.  It is closely related to the view of atheists, who think that after death there is nothing.  That means no consequencees, but the Bible is very clear about consequences.

👍

[Luther]

On 1/3/2025 at 5:43 PM, FreeGrace said:

Why include "eternal" to 'annihilation', because annihilation has an end point.  When the entity ceases to exist, there is no more.  Poof!  So what does "eternal" have to do with annihilation?  If something is eternal, that means the entity exists forever.  The Bible is clear that condemnation will exist forever.  

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This verse is the BEST verse to refute 'annihilationism'.  We note that the devil will be cast into the LOF after the Millinnial Reign of Christ.  He will JOIN the 'beast and false prophet' two human beings, who were cast into the LOF 1,000 years BEFORE.  That's a lot of suffering, don'tcha think?

The verse ends with this:  They (beast, false prophet, the devil) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  This isn't even about "smoke of their torment".  It is clearly ABOUT their TORMENT.

So, how long will this TORMENT be?  The Bible SAYS:  day and night for ever and ever.  Hm.  How long will that be?  Well, the words "day and night" refer to a 24 hour day.  A specific time frame.  But there's more:  for ever and ever.  So, how long is that?  Well, never ending is what it means.  Never stopping.  So the torment for those cast into the LOF will never end.

Of course, those with their own agenda, driven by their own bias, will argue "day and night, for ever and ever" that "day and night for ever and ever" simply cannot mean never ending.  And then comes out the list of verses that don't actually relate to Rev 20:10 at all.  They just don't want to face reality here.

But there's another huge flaw in the idea of annihilation.  It aligns pretty well with what atheists believe.  For them, at death, they believe that they will no longer exist.  That means no conscienceness, no nothing.  But we KNOW from Scripture that there is a holding cell for unblelievers, called Hades, where all unbelievers go after death, awaiting the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20:11-15.  

To cease to exist means to be free of ALL senses.  So there can be NO sense of eternal condemnation, yet the Bible teaches that there will be a sense of eternal condemnation.

Satan wants peope to believe that there are no consequences for behavior, and at death, there is no more.  That means no more suffering, no more torment, no more anything.  The Bible clearly doesn't teach any of that nonsense.

No, God didn't breathe O2 into Adam's body.  He placed the soul/spirit into the physiological body of Adam, and then and ONLY THEN did Adam "become a living being" human being.  Gen 2:7

So you don't believe Adam is in heaven right now, and won't receive a resurrection body when ALL believers will receive theirs?

So then, when you die, and therefore cease to exist, you won't receive a glorified immortal resurrection body, which is just like the one Jesus had when He resurrected.

Your teaching is FAR from the Bible.  

You said: "So what does "eternal" have to do with annihilation?"

You can look at it like this: Eternal death ( the opposite of eternal life). The soul of the unsaved has no possibility of a future resurrection, because it is " destroyed in hell", another name for the grave. 

[DeighAnn]

On 1/10/2025 at 7:45 AM, FreeGrace said:

This is not about loss of salvation.  It is about the fact that those who drift toward the law will not be restored to repentance.  That has nothing to do with salvation.

In your opinion, of course.  Here still, I simply don't agree with the 'those who drift towards the law' not able to be restored to repentance' as to the 'having fallen away' meaning. Seeking to be PERFECT under the law while REJECTING Christ I don't believe is what it is all about.  In my opinion anyhow, as you are entitled to yours.  


Hebrew 6
4 {It is} Impossible for to those once having been enlightened, having tasted then of the gift heavenly, and partakers having become of [the] Spirit Holy, 5 and [the] goodness having tasted of God's word, [the] power also [of the] coming age 6 and then having fallen away again to restore [them] to repentance, crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting [Him} to open shame


Even when I check out the entire chapter, I fail to see how the 'shall fall away' is only 'those drifting towards the law' no longer being able to repent.  We are still under the commandments of God, the 'ordinances' being nailed to it but the commandments intensified, no longer just the 'phyiscal' following/obeying but the heart and intent added.  
If, however, the Comforter leads me to such an understanding, I'll be sure and let you know.  Till then, we must agree to disagree and let the words speak for themselves.  



A more in-depth explanation should someone else wonder... 
 

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 

Baptisms, faith, laying on of hands...I don't see these as 'drifting towards the law'.    


3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

not here either

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away,

nor here 

to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

God's Promise is Certain - I believe what is now being put forth has to do with 'the Promises' of God and here, how to inherit, another subject. 

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He sware by Himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.  

In my opinion, that says more about falling away to the ways of the world, than to 'drifting'.  Again, to each his own. 

 

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: "So what does "eternal" have to do with annihilation?"

You can look at it like this: Eternal death ( the opposite of eternal life). The soul of the unsaved has no possibility of a future resurrection, because it is " destroyed in hell", another name for the grave. 

The words "eternal death" does not occur together in the Bible, as the words "eternal life" do.  The lake of fire is called the SECOND death because when the unbeliever is resurrected back into his/her mortal body, it will die again.  But the immaterial (soul) will"be tormented day and night, for ever and ever".  Rev 20:10