Annihilationism

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said:

This is not about loss of salvation.  It is about the fact that those who drift toward the law will not be restored to repentance.  That has nothing to do with salvation.

In your opinion, of course.

Since it seems your opinion is that salvation can be lost, EVEN THOUGH Jesus made it very clear in John 5:24 that whoever believes (present tense) HAS (present tense) eternal life.  That means WHEN (the MOMENT) a person believes in Christ, they possess eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said He gives them (believers - Jn 5:24) eternal life and they shall never perish.  So your opinion is in direct conflict with the very clear words of Jesus.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  Here still, I simply don't agree with the 'those who drift towards the law' not able to be restored to repentance' as to the 'having fallen away' meaning.

Right.  Seems you believe that believers can perish, even though Jesus said they shall never perish.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 Seeking to be PERFECT under the law while REJECTING Christ I don't believe is what it is all about.  In my opinion anyhow, as you are entitled to yours.

Well, what is your opinion about it then?

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hebrew 6
4 {It is} Impossible for to those once having been enlightened, having tasted then of the gift heavenly, and partakers having become of [the] Spirit Holy, 5 and [the] goodness having tasted of God's word, [the] power also [of the] coming age 6 and then having fallen away again to restore [them] to repentance, crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting [Him} to open shame

Even when I check out the entire chapter, I fail to see how the 'shall fall away' is only 'those drifting towards the law' no longer being able to repent. 

Your admitted failure to see how it is "only no longer being able to repent" doesn't mean it means something else, esp when that is exactly what the verse SAYS.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We are still under the commandments of God, the 'ordinances' being nailed to it but the commandments intensified, no longer just the 'phyiscal'  following/obeying but the heart and intent added. 

What is the point here?

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If, however, the Comforter leads me to such an understanding, I'll be sure and let you know.  Till then, we must agree to disagree and let the words speak for themselves.

That's what I've done.  I have no idea what you've done.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  A more in-depth explanation should someone else wonder... 

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 

Baptisms, faith, laying on of hands...I don't see these as 'drifting towards the law'.

The point of the author here is to MOVE ON towards spiritual maturity, by the words "not laying again the foundation of . . ."  iow, let's move from the basic doctrines to the advanced doctrines.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The words are clear:  "it is IMPOSSIBLE" . . . "to renew theme again unto repentance".

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Is this what drives your opinion about losing salvation?  (the red words?)  Read the 2 verses carefully.  What, exactly, is "to be burned"?  You've only got 2 choices:  either "the land" that produces, or the "thorns and briers" that are rejected.  

"the land" is the producer of works; "herbs" or "thorns/briers".   It's not the land that burns, but what is growing on the land.  Believers either produce fruit, or junk.  The junk will be burned up.  Even Paul wrote about that in 1 Cor 3.

v.12 lists what man "produces":  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  Red words are pleasing to God, and blue words are rejected by God.

v.13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Every believer will be evaluated at the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ.  So "fire" doesn't always mean "buring in hell", as many assume.  It refers to evaluation.

v.14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.   iow, if the believer builds on this foundation the valuable things (gold, silver, precious stones, all of which please God) he will be REWARDED at the BEMA.

v.15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Real clear.  The green words plainly say that the rejected works (wood, hay stubble) will be burned in the evaluation, and "he shall suffer loss".  The blue words REFUTE any notion of losing salvation.  "but he himself SHALL BE SAVED, but as by evaluation (fire).

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

There is no loss of salvation teaching here.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

God's Promise is Certain - I believe what is now being put forth has to do with 'the Promises' of God and here, how to inherit, another subject.

God promises eternal life to those who believe in Christ, and God promises reward for faithful service.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.  
In my opinion, that says more about falling away to the ways of the world, than to 'drifting'.  Again, to each his own. 

Seems you are making a distinction without a difference.  It is the thorns/briers that will be burned.  Not the believer but his rejected works.  Just like 1 Cor 3:12-15 says.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Why did you quote this?  And why do you persist in leaving out the book and chapter number?  You know it is rude to do that.

And you left out the most important;  what you think Paul was meaning.  What is certain is that are no words that describe loss of salvation.  So what do you think Paul was teaching?

[DeighAnn]

 

On 1/10/2025 at 7:45 AM, FreeGrace said:

It is an error to misunderstand "final condition" as "end of life" or "where they will be after death".

The majority of English translations have:  "become worse to them than the first" or "than the beginning".  So it refers simply to "life after returning to entangling again in the corruption of the world".

The point is about God's divine discipline, per Heb 12:11.  It will be painful for those who return to the corruption of the world.

2 Peter 2

Profane and Blasphemous Seducers

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.




Those 'of the corruption of the world' suffer 1st death and face the 2nd death.  'Taken and destroyed, utterly perished, the mist of darkness reserved forever', for me personally, does fall under "where they will be after death".

Here again, we do not agree for some reason.  



"So it refers simply to "life after returning to entangling again in the corruption of the world"."

That makes no sense to me either.  They RETURN to the world because they like it better and do better, in their minds, no longer "being one of the sheep" but one of the wolves doing the same if not worse than them.

 The PENALTY doesn't come until AFTER the die and AT JUDGMENT.




 

On 1/10/2025 at 7:45 AM, FreeGrace said:

 

Here is absolute proof that salvation cannot be lost.  I ask anyone who thinks so to address these 2 verses and show me where my error is.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, believing and having (possessing) are in the same tense, which means they occur at the same time.  So Jesus' words here prove that the possession of eternal life occurs WHEN a person  believes in Christ.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here, we learn WHO gives the gift of eternal life; Jesus Himself.  And He tells us the RESULT of being given eternal life, which occurs WHEN a person believes in Him:  they shall never perish.

This is an ironclad promise by Jesus Himself about those who have received eternal life.

These 2 verses prove that none of the verses above them can refer to loss of salvation.

So, after seeing these 2 verses, those who STILL believe that salvation can be lost are in disagreement with what Jesus taught.

Let me try to explain John 5:24 to you this way and so even if it doesn't make any sense to you, it might to someone else.  

"The person who is looking at me and trusting me, will never fall down"

There is a person being LOOKED AT, and there is the person who is LOOKING
 
Both, in the Present Tense.  Taking that understanding to John we have

191 akouó: To hear, to listen, to understand, meaning  I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported. 

4100  pisteuó: To believe, to have faith, to trust - meaning I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.


Truly, Truly I say to you that the [one] the word of Me hearing, and believing the [One} having sent Me, he has life eternal and into judgment not comes, but has passed out of death into life


So, the one, not only hearing but comprehending (taking place IN THE PRESENT and NOT just some event that happened in the PAST, and/or as in continuing on, always happening, as opposed to having ceased in both the hearing and in believing) 

so being led by the Spirit, studying to show thyself approved, obeying, picking up their cross and following Him, looking to endure to the end, and the many other things we keep doing when led of the Spirit, is the PERSON DOING the 'looking'. 

Eternal life is WHO they are looking at.  

Eternal life WILL ALWAYS be eternal life and will never cease to be eternal life, on that, there is no change, no 'falling away', no choosing any other way, no 'falling backwards'... HE HAS DONE HIS PART, that will never be undone, IT IS ALWAYS PRESENT.  It will never cease to be present.  


But, as for 'the one' doing the 'hearing and believing' THEY ALSO must remain ever PRESENT to the hearing and believing since it is the PRESENT hearing and believing and not the past hearing and believing that receives eternal life.


So, again, we don't agree. 

You seem to think that when you LOSE something, it ceases to be as it was before you lost it, whereas I believe 'it' stays the same as it has always been, WHETHER or NOT it is still in your possession

and/or

once you receive something it can never be lost.   

I give you a penny.  No matter what, I will always be the one to have given you that penny.  What happens with the penny after that DOESN'T CHANGE ME AT ALL.  


You have reached out and grabbed the penny and are holding it tight.  That penny is yours as long as you keep holding it tight.  You will always be a penny richer.  BUT one day you nod off and lose the penny.  You quit holding it, you quit holding it tight, you no longer have the penny, you are no longer a penny richer.    


Again, I believe you have lost the penny, are no longer a penny richer while the penny remains the same.  



I believe I understand what I would need to believe, in order to believe as you do and that would be

that having received the penny, even when lose the penny, I still remain a penny richer just the same, because the penny remains a penny.   

 

Same formula keeps applying.  




 

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

2 Peter 2

Profane and Blasphemous Seducers

Really??  You ignore EVERY point I made to you and you just keep chugging along with your own thoughts.  Is that how you think discussions work?

Well, they don't.  I asked you a lot of questions.  Since you don't even address or acknowledge my points/questions, nor fix the way you "cite" verses, why should I continue banging my head against the wall?

I did notice how you tried to explain John 5:24, but you aren't even close.  The words are very clear and in plain language.  There is nothing about 'falling down'.

The verse clearly SAYS "whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life".  You've tried to twist it into something else that it DOESN'T SAY.  Since that's how you "read" Scripture, there seems no point to continue.

When believers twist what Jesus said, I lose interest.  

[Luther]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The words "eternal death" does not occur together in the Bible, as the words "eternal life" do.  The lake of fire is called the SECOND death because when the unbeliever is resurrected back into his/her mortal body, it will die again.  But the immaterial (soul) will"be tormented day and night, for ever and ever".  Rev 20:10

I understand your concern with using words carefully. I agree.  I thought about the phrase " eternal death", and I use it for this reason: it is the opposite of the  eternal life of the soul. Example:

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If the gift of God is eternal life, then the wages or payment for sin is eternal death. It doesn't say "the wages of sin is death, but then an eternity in a fiery place for millions of years ". It says death. And when something dies it is no longer. 

After a long and careful study ( not knowing everything) the only phrase that I will confess is a little hard to decipher would be " day and night for ever and ever", but I have some theories. Every other phrase regarding the essence of " hell" can be explained. You have to start ( IMHO) with understanding what the word " HELL" really means. It don't mean a place of fiery torture for ever and ever. 

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, Luther said:

If the gift of God is eternal life, then the wages or payment for sin is eternal death. It doesn't say "the wages of sin is death, but then an eternity in a fiery place for millions of years ". It says death. And when something dies it is no longer. 

This is a direct denial of Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man... and we know
John 17:14 (KJV)

[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Luther said:

I understand your concern with using words carefully. I agree.  I thought about the phrase " eternal death", and I use it for this reason: it is the opposite of the  eternal life of the soul.

It isn't the opposite.  Eternal life is an eternal existence.  Death is the experience of existence apart from God.

8 hours ago, Luther said:

Example:

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If the gift of God is eternal life, then the wages or payment for sin is eternal death.

It doesn't say "eternal" death.  You have added that word to the verse.

8 hours ago, Luther said:

It doesn't say "the wages of sin is death, but then an eternity in a fiery place for millions of years ".

First, lol, "an eternity" isn't "millions of years".  That's a good one.  The basic meaning of death is separation, and refers to the separation of soul from body, as James 2:26 says.  When a person dies, it is common to refer to the person as having "passed away" even though the body is still with us.  

The Bible describes the lake of fire as the "second death".  If you take words literally, what does that refer to?  Only one thing:  the resurrected but still mortal body DYING again when cast into the lake of fire.  So unbelievers will physically die two times.

8 hours ago, Luther said:

It says death. And when something dies it is no longer.

That's only the physical part.  Rev 20:10 makes very clear that there will be an eternity of torment.  That means conscious experience for eternity.

8 hours ago, Luther said:

After a long and careful study ( not knowing everything) the only phrase that I will confess is a little hard to decipher would be " day and night for ever and ever", but I have some theories.

We don't need theories.  We have the Bible and context is always key.  In the book of Revelation, John uses the words "for ever and ever" MOSTLY to describe God.  Do a word search on "for ever and ever" in Rev.  You'll see.  And you should know that God is absolutely eternal.  And there are no verses that show "for ever and ever" to be simply an exaggeration.

The fact that John included "day and night" right before "for ever and ever" gives the whole verse context for TIME.  We know that "day and night" refers to a 24 hour period, or 1 day.  So adding "for ever and ever" easily means a day never ending.  There can be no other obvious meaning.  The context from Revelation mostly describes eternal God.

8 hours ago, Luther said:

Every other phrase regarding the essence of " hell" can be explained. You have to start ( IMHO) with understanding what the word " HELL" really means. It don't mean a place of fiery torture for ever and ever. 

The word "hell" refers to Hades, which is merely the holding tank for all unbelievers when they die.  Their soul remains in Hades until the Great White Throne judgment, and after being judged, every unbeliever will be cast into the LOF.

What is your version of Rev 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

What can die twice?

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

This is a direct denial of Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man... and we know
John 17:14 (KJV)

[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Thanks for bringing up Lazarus and the rich man.  Too many believers excuse the account as a parable, even though Jesus mentioned actually people and even Abraham in the account.  It is clear He was speaking of 2 real people during His time on earth who both died and went to Hades.  Quite a glimpse of the afterlife.

[Alive]

Jesus did not teach Greek mythology.

Might be a good idea to study it some.

[Alive]

The question asked was never answered.

 

[Alive]

More thoughts and words on the subject.