BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

I see where there is a vast number of people in heaven after a gathering out from within great tribulation. Perhaps you could show from scripture a like group, vast in number and as holy as the ones described in Rev 7, raptured pretribulationally.

Sure.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Wrong last trump.

It's the last trump that all of the Jews knew about. The Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah, is celebrated every year. It is a day of blowing trumpets.

The Jews did not know about the last trump or 7th trumpet blown by an angel as John had not written Revelation yet. Additionally, the last trump will be blown at the 6th seal as that is when the harvest occurs. The 7th trumpet, which occurs in the 7th seal, is the end of the wrath of God.

Numbers 29

And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

 

 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Your 'therefore' isn't a valid conclusion from what you posted. 

By now you should understand Romans 11 and I should have no need to post it.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't see you have demonstrated it is God's plan. It's a church plan. It's a western doctrine. That I can see. 

God's plan is all over the Word of God. 

Here's another example. The Church knows the Lord and He knows us. There are other sheep not of the fold that currently know Jesus as Messiah, He must also bring them as they are the second fold. The second fold cannot happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. You can dance around the truth all you want; it does not change the facts.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I see where there is a vast number of people in heaven after a gathering out from within great tribulation. Perhaps you could show from scripture a like group, vast in number and as holy as the ones described in Rev 7, raptured pretribulationally.

Shalom, @Diaste.

Why is it that people continually think that "Heaven" is a PLACE? The common explanation for a "third heaven" is what C. I. SCOFIELD said in his notes for 2 Corinthians 12:2: "1st heaven, of clouds; 2nd heaven, of stars; 3rd heaven, God's abode." He has NO Scripture backing up this claim!

It only SEEMED like he was right, and everybody jumped on the bandwagon! While science was making strides in exploring "outer space" above the atmosphere, Christians were making inroads into accepting that "heaven" was actually "Heaven," a place where God dwelt.

Where's the SCRIPTURAL evidence? I looked up EVERY REFERENCE to "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly" in the Bible. Then, I looked up every Hebrew word and every Greek word that was used for these translations, through the use of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance BY HAND before I even knew about personal computers, when I was in high school (from 1975 through 1976). Phones, short for telephones, were toaster sized contraptions that sat on the desk or hung on the wall! 

THROUGH CONTEXT, I came up with the truth of their definitions, and the evidence was overwhelming! In both the Hebrew word "שָׁמָיִם" or "shaamaayim," (Genesis 1:6-8, 20) and the Greek word "οὐρανός" or "ouranos" (Matthew 16:1-4), it's conclusively clear that BOTH words mean simply "the sky." As is clear from context in the Hebrew texts, words were added to suggest "outer space," giving "שְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמָיִם" or "shmeey hashaamaayim," "heaven of heavens," and in Greek texts, primariliy those from Paul's writings, a prefix, namely "epi," was added to suggest the same, forming the adjective, "ἐπουράνιος" or "epouranios." I tried everything to get to the same conclusion that C. I. Scofield had come to, and NOTHING was working!

I noticed, for instance, that there was "ouranos," "mesouranos," and "epourios," and though MAYBE the "mesouranos," meaning "middle of the sky," might actually refer to the "heaven of stars," and "epouranios" may refer to above that as "God's abode," but, of course, the contexts did not support that theory. Instead, I learned that "mesouranos" was where the birds fly (Revelation 19:17), and "epouranios" was where the sun, moon, and stars were (1 Corinthians 15:40-41)!

Then, I read 2 Peter 3:3-13, and I found someone who knew about and shared what the true "third heaven" was:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

He presents the picture that there are THREE AGES, with the first two ending in cataclysms, the first one of excessive water, and the second one of excessive fire:

So, I will take Peter's word over that of C. I. Scofield.

God doesn''t have "an abode"; He doesn't NEED "an abode!" He is OMNIPRESENT throughout His Creation we call the "Universe!" He knows the least little neutrino or subatomic particle or photon in EVERY galaxy that exists! If one believes that He "abides" ANYWHERE, then he or she has too small a view of God!

[Alive]

17 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

God doesn''t have "an abode"; He doesn't NEED "an abode!" He is OMNIPRESENT throughout His Creation we call the "Universe!" He knows the least little neutrino or subatomic particle or photon in EVERY galaxy that exists! If one believes that He "abides" ANYWHERE, then he or she has too small a view of God!

I tend to agree with this sort of viewpoint. I think that all else is symbolic.

I have long thought that Paul’s experience was literally impossible to convey.

[enoob57]

20 hours ago, Keras said:

What happened when the Revelation was given to John and the several other Biblical accounts of individuals going to heaven; always only temp0roraly, in no way proves a general rapture of the Church to heaven.

We have our appointed tasks to do here, Matthew 28:19-20 - until Jesus Returns.

seeing how John is part of the church and Elders are present your argument is moot as far as I am concerned... the real seal on the whole is God's own promises

2 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV)

[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

John 14:2 (KJV)

[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

As the Father is never stated as dwelling on the earth this can only be referring to heaven...

 

[Keras]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

As the Father is never stated as dwelling on the earth this can only be referring to heaven...

Actually, God is omnipresent. In the Spiritual dimension.

Heaven is God’s Spiritual home. Earth is our physical home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one.

Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.

Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed.

Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them.

Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on the renewed earth.  Revelation 21 to 22 

Will those who will live with Jesus during His Millennial reign, have spiritual bodies? No, because there will be many still alive at His Return, Matthew 24:31 and when He was resurrected, He still ate and drank in a body suited for earthly living. John 21:12

Revelation 20:4-6…the souls of those who were killed for their faith in God, were resurrected and they will reign with Christ for 1000 years… On earth!

 People who think there is a rapture to heaven, where they believe they will have heavenly, spiritual bodies have failed to understand that God’s purpose from the beginning of humankind, was to establish a place and a people who would display His glory and to share eternal life with Christ. Hebrews 2:14-15, Revelation 22:14

For now, we face daily challenges in our lives and on the world scene, but the knowledge that a regenerated earth is coming should reassure us and give us the right perspective. There is a purpose in all that happens, the injustices and suffering will not last, they are part of the testing process we all must go through.  God will make everything right, rewarding those who stood firm and trusted Him in all the trials and temptations of this world.  1 Corinthians 16:13

The people who will live with Jesus in the Millennium period, are being prepared now. Remember, it may not be the proud and self-promoting people who will be chosen, it’s the meek who will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5  Those people will then be under the benevolent government of the resurrected martyrs, with Jesus as King. 

Will it be boring to be good all the time? It is wrong to assume sin is exciting and righteousness isn’t. That is the Devil’s lie, his basic strategy, but the reality is that sin robs us of fulfilment, sin doesn’t expand life, it shrinks it and sin’s emptiness inevitably leads to boredom. Where there’s fulfilment, where there’s beauty, where we won’t have to struggle for existence and as God’s mysteries unfold to us, that is the ultimate human utopia: ON EARTH.                   

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, enoob57 said:

seeing how John is part of the church and Elders are present your argument is moot as far as I am concerned... the real seal on the whole is God's own promises

2 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV)

[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Shabbat shalom, @enoob57.

This is a popular argument, but Paul didn't say that we would be going to "Heaven" when we were no longer "at home in the body." He just said, we would be "present with the Lord."

I don't believe in the continuity of life. When one dies, he dies, just as Adam did! He is without breath and is no longer an "air-breathing creature" -he is no longer a "soul." We wait "asleep" until the Resurrection awakens us. Some call this "soul-sleep." I call it "soul annihilation." Instead, we become "souls" once again when we are awakened, and for us, no time has passed. Suddenly we are in the presence of Yeeshuwa`s messengers ("angels"), and meet Yeeshuwa` in the air, finally "present with the Lord!

Furtherfore, the Son of God will transform us into glowing (glorified) bodies and we become MORE than mere "souls"  - "air-breathing creatures," - being "soulual" ("natural") bodies, we will be "SPIRITUAL bodies"  - "air-BLASTING-creatures," capable of BLOWING LIKE A WIND!

HOWEVER, we don't know that this is one's human "body" in this passage; it could be that he was talking about "the body" of the Messiah, that is, "the church," in which one is a member! Try re-reading this passage thinking he was talking about "the body of Christ," instead of one's physical one, and see how it works that way.

16 hours ago, enoob57 said:

John 14:2 (KJV)

[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

As the Father is never stated as dwelling on the earth this can only be referring to heaven...

In Isaiah 66:1 (repeated by Stephen in Acts 7:49), YHWH God said, "הַשָּׁמַיִם כִּסְאִי וְהָאָרֶץ הֲדֹם רַגְלָי" or "Hashshaamayim kiç'iy vhaa'aarets hadom ragliy" translated as "The-skies [are] my-throne, and-the-earth [is] the-stool of-my-feet." He's MUCH BIGGER than that! He's on earth just as He is in the skies, and remember, too, that "the skies" is a dual word that refers to the daytime sky and the nighttime sky, speaking of all one sees in the night - all the stars and galaxies and nebulae!

When we read of the New Jerusalem (the "Lamb's Wife") in Revelation 21, we see that it comes down OUT OF THE SKY:

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "ek tou ouranou" = "out of-the sky") from God, ..."

Our eternal home is HERE (after the earth has been renewed after the Fire), the New Jerusalem LANDING upon it!

As far as God "the Father is never stated as dwelling on the earth this can only be referring to heaven," read the first few verses of this same chapter in Revelation:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God (Greek: ἡ σκηνὴ τοῦ θεοῦ = "hee skeenee tou Theou" = "the [Bedouin]-tent of-the God") [is] WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, AND THEY SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE, AND GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, [AND BE] THEIR GOD. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Never say "never!"

Edited 3 hours ago by Retrobyter
to fix sentence agreement

[Alive]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @enoob57.

This is a popular argument, but Paul didn't say that we would be going to "Heaven" when we were no longer "at home in the body." He just said, we would be "present with the Lord."

I don't believe in the continuity of life. When one dies, he dies, just as Adam did! He is without breath and is no longer an "air-breathing creature" -he is no longer a "soul." We wait "asleep" until the Resurrection awakens us. Some call this "soul-sleep." I call it "soul annihilation." Instead, we become "souls" once again when we are awakened, and for us, no time has passed. Suddenly we are in the presence of Yeeshuwa`s messengers ("angels"), and meet Yeeshuwa` in the air, finally "present with the Lord!

Furtherfore, the Son of God will transform us into glowing (glorified) bodies and we become MORE than mere "souls"  - "air-breathing creatures," - being "soulual" ("natural") bodies, we will be "SPIRITUAL bodies"  - "air-BLASTING-creatures," capable of BLOWING LIKE A WIND!

HOWEVER, we don't know that this is one's human "body" in this passage; it could be that he was talking about "the body" of the Messiah, that is, "the church," in which one is a member! Try re-reading this passage thinking he was talking about "the body of Christ," instead of one's physical one, and see how it works that way.

In Isaiah 66:1 (repeated by Stephen in Acts 7:49), YHWH God said, "הַשָּׁמַיִם כִּסְאִי וְהָאָרֶץ הֲדֹם רַגְלָי" or "Hashshaamayim kiç'iy vhaa'aarets hadom ragliy" translated as "The-skies [are] my-throne, and-the-earth [is] the-stool of-my-feet." He's MUCH BIGGER than that! He's on earth just as He is in the skies, and remember, too, that "the skies" is a dual word that refers to the daytime sky and the nighttime sky, speaking of all one sees in the night - all the stars and galaxies and nebulae!

When we read of the New Jerusalem (the "Lamb's Wife") in Revelation 21, we see that it comes down OUT OF THE SKY:

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "ek tou ouranou" = "out of-the sky") from God, ..."

Our eternal home is HERE (after the earth has been renewed after the Fire), the New Jerusalem LANDING upon it!

As far as God "the Father is never stated as dwelling on the earth this can only be referring to heaven," read the first few verses of this same chapter in Revelation:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God (Greek: ἡ σκηνὴ τοῦ θεοῦ = "hee skeenee tou Theou" = "the [Bedouin]-tent of-the God") [is] WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, AND THEY SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE, AND GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, [AND BE] THEIR GOD. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Never say "never!"

“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.”

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 NKJV)

https://accordance.bible/link/read/NKJVS#Eccl._9:5