Choice of Denomination

[Pax]

quote:

"If a person looks up the word "anathema" in the dictionary it means excommunicated or strongly denounced. Neither of which means one is going to hell. This means that the person is in grave danger of going to hell but could still come back to the Church and the fullness of the truth."

Excommunicated means denounced as an unbeliever in church parlance. That means going to hell if true. And yes, if one recanted the truth that he was saved by faith ALONE in Christ then he could return and be a Roman Catholic in good standing provided he had not been burned at the stake. Point is Pax you are wrong when you say your church has not condemned Protestants to hell over the issue of salvation. Its in writing for all to see.

Luther changed the Sacraments to two since those were the only ones actually instituted by Jesus himself.

And for those who are complaining about Luther's sometimes bawdy language he definitely was not into pietism. He called a thing what it was including his own sin. No phony moralism that much of Christianity has become today. Even when confronted with his own greatness Luther said that while God carried out the Reformation he and Melancthon sat around and drank beer. Luther knew what he was but also knew who had saved him.

S.W.,

Let me try to give you a little tip, and by no means am I trying to be critical. It would be in your best interest to tone things down a little. You come off being somewhat abrasive. A true evangelizer doesn't push people away, but draws them to Christ. You seem to be a gung ho Lutheran, which is o.k., but you have to be careful not put out misinformation or should I say bash another denominations to try and prove your point. This then makes you look bad. I myself struggle with this at times, and have to stand back and correct myself. When you sit here and make the Catholic Church seem like this horrible denomination that goes around and kills anyone and everyone who doesn't profess to be Catholic, then you are misleading people. Certain people within the Catholic Church have done some bad things in the past, but this wasn't every Catholic. Was this wrong, yes. Did Protestants do some horrible things in the past to Catholics, yes. Was this wrong, yes. Are all Protestants bad horrible people, no. My entire family are Baptist. Everyone of us are sinners including the Pope. This would be called original sin. This whole thread was started with one question, which denomination? Very valid question since there are now 28,000 Christian denominations around the world. This would confuse anyone. I think this thread has run its course and it would be wise for the moderators to close it. St. Worm I encourage you to stick around so that we can debate specific theological questions.

[st. Worm]

Pax, thanks for the advice but please review my post in question. Nothing in it is harsh or a misrepresentation of what the RCC believes and what they did to people. I agree there were atrocities on all sides back then. I am more than willing to concede that. I don't see how that is harsh or why what I said would need toning down. That is a sad part of church history.

Also, I am not a Catholic basher and don't know why you are sort of implying that. I said what I said only in response to your challenge and don't think it constitutes bashing in any sense. Certainly none was intended.

Thanks again and I too look forward to more discussions although unfortunately I have little time during the week.

Blessings.

[Pax]

Pax, thanks for the advice but please review my post in question. Nothing in it is harsh or a misrepresentation of what the RCC believes and what they did to people. I agree there were atrocities on all sides back then. I am more than willing to concede that. I don't see how that is harsh or why what I said would need toning down. That is a sad part of church history.

Also, I am not a Catholic basher and don't know why you are sort of implying that. I said what I said only in response to your challenge and don't think it constitutes bashing in any sense. Certainly none was intended.

Thanks again and I too look forward to more discussions although unfortunately I have little time during the week.

Blessings.

S.W.,

I am not offended in anyway and truely think you are a very intelligent person. However, we do disagree on theology. I just find it interesting that when the Catholic Church comes up in almost any discussion, some people will bring up negative things that had happened in the past by a few Catholics. Since you are a died hard Lutheran, (not sure if you converted, or are a cradle Lutheran) you have been taught the most negative elements of Church history, many of which have been greatly exaggerated, to promote Luther's theology. I do think you may be surprised how much we would agree on. I gotta go, I'll be on the road all day.....We are heading home from Christmas.

[Smalcald]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

Sure. I will try although I am not always clear in my own thoughts

What I was referring to was how we are to respond to the Word of God through worship. Luther never stood alone he always worshipped in unity with others, people who agreed with his beliefs about how the Church should be reformed, and sometimes people who did not. Consider what Luther did, did he say the heck with you, I am going home and being a Christian by myself. No he spent a good portion of his life cajoling, arguing and criticizing what he considered his church, and it was his church. He was excommunicated for this, and yes in this case we must follow the Word, but even then he continued to worship as a church in unity with other like minded Catholic reformers.

At times yes I think we may have to stand alone, and we should be ready for that. But this certainly is not the case today, we can and do have many people who are in the faith of Christ who believe the bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, we can and should worship together with these people as a visible church. If we believe the Word, we will try to do what it instructs, which is to worship together, to form visible churches and appoint overseers among us, deacons, bishops and elders who adhere to the Word of God. This is not to say we accept bad theology or heretical theology, but it is to say we need leadership, and that we are not to INTENTIONALLLY be alone in our Christian walk. What I was referring to was charlatans like Camping who encourage people to isolate themselves from other Christians and hey give money to his radio show.

The New Testament is rarely addressed to individual Christians, it always addresses groups of Christians, Churches in each of the regions, and these churches all had leaders and overseers as Paul speaks of and gives directions for how those people should be appointed.

So yes worship with your conscience, find a Church who follows the word of God and then join and be part of that membership, and yes follow the legitimate leadership of that Church.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

Sure. I will try although I am not always clear in my own thoughts

What I was referring to was how we are to respond to the Word of God through worship. Luther never stood alone he always worshipped in unity with others, people who agreed with his beliefs about how the Church should be reformed, and sometimes people who did not. Consider what Luther did, did he say the heck with you, I am going home and being a Christian by myself. No he spent a good portion of his life cajoling, arguing and criticizing what he considered his church, and it was his church. He was excommunicated for this, and yes in this case we must follow the Word, but even then he continued to worship as a church in unity with other like minded Catholic reformers.

At times yes I think we may have to stand alone, and we should be ready for that. But this certainly is not the case today, we can and do have many people who are in the faith of Christ who believe the bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, we can and should worship together with these people as a visible church. If we believe the Word, we will try to do what it instructs, which is to worship together, to form visible churches and appoint overseers among us, deacons, bishops and elders who adhere to the Word of God. This is not to say we accept bad theology or heretical theology, but it is to say we need leadership, and that we are not to INTENTIONALLY be alone in our Christian walk. What I was referring to was charlatans like Camping who encourage people to isolate themselves from other Christians and hey give money to his radio show.

The New Testament is rarely addressed to individual Christians, it always addresses groups of Christians, Churches in each of the regions, and these churches all had leaders and overseers as Paul speaks of and gives directions for how those people should be appointed.

So yes worship with your conscience, find a Church who follows the word of God and then join and be part of that membership, and yes follow the legitimate leadership of that Church.

I of course see your point yes we dont want to isolate ones self however the church does not mediate between us and God, Jesus does so he say where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there I will be, further more when we become a name brand believer then we no longer are bearing the brand mark Christian but rather the brand mark of what ever denomination one submits to that also means that if I where to claim to be a Catholic then i would also be in agreement with all their teachings, but if I Claim no alegance to any denomination but I am simply a Christian then I am submitting myself to Christ and I am in agreement with his teachings. besides each denominations has it's own clergy so wich one is being directed by God. would say all while all dispute one another. The bible clearly states that the Christ is the Head of every man. when we are willing to submit ourselves only to Christ only than and only than can we take a stand against the harisee that may exsist in what ever denomination that one might prescribe to over another.

Peace to you Smalcald

[st. Worm]

quote:

"The bible clearly states that the Christ is the Head of every man. when we are willing to submit ourselves only to Christ only than and only than can we take a stand against the harisee that may exsist in what ever denomination that one might prescribe to over another.'

Are you saying that Christ did not give His church (the visible church) special authority that he did not give individual believers? I am having a real hard time understanding the anti-denominationalism that exists on this board. Nowhere in Scripture is the church described as some here are attempting to portray it whereby each individual determines himself how he will worship, what he will believe or who he/she is to submit to. To say we are to submit only to Christ ignoring the authority vested by Christ in the church and its leaders seems a distortion and a nice way to be a rebel in a way that was never really intended. Yes, sometimes its time to leave a church that has left Christ but that does not mean we go back into the wilderness.

[other one]

quote:

"The bible clearly states that the Christ is the Head of every man. when we are willing to submit ourselves only to Christ only than and only than can we take a stand against the harisee that may exsist in what ever denomination that one might prescribe to over another.'

Are you saying that Christ did not give His church (the visible church) special authority that he did not give individual believers? I am having a real hard time understanding the anti-denominationalism that exists on this board. Nowhere in Scripture is the church described as some here are attempting to portray it whereby each individual determines himself how he will worship, what he will believe or who he/she is to submit to. To say we are to submit only to Christ ignoring the authority vested by Christ in the church and its leaders seems a distortion and a nice way to be a rebel in a way that was never really intended. Yes, sometimes its time to leave a church that has left Christ but that does not mean we go back into the wilderness.

Tell you what Worm,,,,, stay around here for a year or so and after a few thousand posts you might get to know us enough to understand why there is so much problem with that subject. There are threads of hundreds of pages over the past two years I've been here, and I do understand why the problem....... if you read and read you will learn also......

[st. Worm]

other one,

I could read posts bashing churches and denominations the rest of my life but that would not change my view. I've been involved with and affected by church horror stories that would exceed what most here have probably experienced but I also know that while it may be necessary to find a new church, throwing the baby out with the bath water and going your own way is not the answer.

[Pilgrim7]

st. worm,

Its an issue of the 'falling away' from the truth that Paul warned about. Some people will not be satisfied with churches that are stagnant and are satisfied with a preset 'creed' and not diligently searching the Scriptures for truth. God is seeking to restore all the truth written in the Scriptures from the beginning. Most are not willing to change with the truth and stubbornly hold on to their incomplete doctrines or doctrines which are not in harmony with the Scriptures but borrowed from Babylon and made into doctrines.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (second coming)

3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (restoration) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

You see most demoninations start with a search for truth. Certain individuals become aware of truth that is being neglected or rejected and break away on a search for truth. This is how God is working to restore all truth lost in the 'falling away'.

Yet eventually each new denomination becomes dominated by man, the search for truth and reformation is lost and a 'creed' is developed. They refuse to move beyond their creed, and the reformation ceases. This has happened numerous times.

From this point on unity instead of truth becomes the goal, the church bureaucracy requires so much money to operate that instead of searching for new and expanding truth, doctrine begins to be compromised in order to keep the 'flock' happy, growing and contributing to the coffers.

You see, during the 'falling away', many pagan doctrines and practices were brought into 'christianity' and much truth was rejected. God has been working to rectify this problem. Yet the denominations will not cooperate with Him. Now God is working through individuals to put toghether His 'church without spot or wrinkle'. To do this He calls His real people out of 'Babylon', or denominations that will not finish the reformation and reject all the false doctrine brought in during the 'falling away'.

A christianity which tolerates Babylonian doctrine is known as 'Mystery Babylon', or a form of Babylon disguised as christianity, a 'wolf religion in sheeps clothing'. If the churches do not repent and reform, God withdraws His Spirit from them and calls His people out of them. You see, God is able to lead His true church with out the man made church structure. His sheep hear His voice individually and they follow Him in perfect harmony with each other. Just look at the start of Christianity. They broke away from the Jewish Church Structure.

God Bless,

Dennis

[st. Worm]

This "babylonian doctrine" that you guys keep repeating is obviously part of the canned program you have bought into. I have heard less contrived arguments from a 14 year old JW on my front porch.

Very sad and I say this with no disrespect or malice but what you are advocating is basically the same reasoning as every flying saucer cult that came down the pike. Its seems somewhat arrogant to me that you so easily toss 2000 years of church history out and smugly break out this Babylonian doctrine phrase at the drop of a hat. Cute bumper sticker theology hardly sets me back on my heels.

I would imagine you also have tossed the idea of a trained and educated pastorate, fellowship of believers and church authority and discipline. I think you have finally arrived at neo-fundamentalism without even knowing it.

Edited December 28, 2005 by st. Worm