Come out of her my peoplel

[Pax]

"This just proves why the Church needs an authoritative body to lead the Church."

If they are so authoritative Pax then why wasn't Ted Kennedy given church discipline instead of a phony annulment?

Answer: $$$$$

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I am sure it is some reference to Ted Kennedy not following what the Church teaches. I would be the first to agree with anyone that Ted Kennedy is Catholic in name only. He doesn't represent or speak for the Church. The issue of annulments is a very deep subject that I won't get into for now. Is this all you can come with, Ted Kennedy, when I bring up the issue of authority within the Church. Anyone can look around and see that Luther obvioulsy didn't have an answer for this either, or else we wouldn't have 25,000 different Protestant Churches. SW, this is the weekest link in the Protestant movement....splintering that continues within Christianity. Think about it, is a ONE united body stronger than 25,000 fragmented bodies all teaching different theology??? Think of it in military terms, is it easier to attack one united body of troops, or is it easier to to fragment the main body and then pick off each small weaker group. The devil isn't stupid.

[other one]

Hi there mjrhealth, I notice this was your first post here on worthy boards, so I'd like to welcome you here. I hope you stay around to meet the rest of the people here. God knows that the ones who have posted so far have not extended any kind of welcome at all.

I can't say that I agree with your post, but I'll mull it over for a while and see if I can understand exactly where you're coming from. I too am a bit upset with organized religion these days, but not to the point of throwing it all away.

To the rest of the posters on this thread you should be ashamed of yourselves. This person may just be a troll coming by to start trouble or they may just have a problem and need some help getting through something. You owe it to this board to make sure which before you sanctimoniously throw him/her on some imagined scrap heap in the backs of your minds. That is not what this board was/is designed to do.

Edited to say that I had not read PAX's post before I wrote mine.

Edited January 17, 2006 by other one

[angels4u]

Hi there mjrhealth

Welcome here I am sorry for the misunderstanding as you can see I took my words back and hope everything will work out here for you

We had so many bad experiences here on the board with prophecies, thats why evereybody is so very careful before they believe its from God.

[st. Worm]

"I would be the first to agree with anyone that Ted Kennedy is Catholic in name only."

Pax, I just could not resist. Obviously I could list more serious problems with naming the RCC as the one true church but the Kennedy example is still a useful one. As far as I know he is a member in good standing like it or not. How does a man with his track record not get the grace of church discipline? He is still welcome at the Lord's Supper in spite of his numerous public and private sins worthy of discipline by a real church.

[Pax]

"I would be the first to agree with anyone that Ted Kennedy is Catholic in name only."

Pax, I just could not resist. Obviously I could list more serious problems with naming the RCC as the one true church but the Kennedy example is still a useful one. As far as I know he is a member in good standing like it or not. How does a man with his track record not get the grace of church discipline? He is still welcome at the Lord's Supper in spite of his numerous public and private sins worthy of discipline by a real church.

I would first like to say that I didn't mean any disrespect towards the original poster of this thread. I have respect for all people. Now on to your question SW. Ted Kennedy is not in good standing with the Church. Any person who publically promotes intrinsic evils such as abortion to name only one, is not in good standing with the Church and should be denied communion. If you remember we went through this when John Kerry was running for office. The problem is that certain Priest will still give Kenndy and Kerry communion using the excuse that they can't judge ones soul and they don't know for certain that that person hasn't gone to confesion earlier in the day. Other priest would not allow Kennedy, Kerry or any other Catholic to receive Holy Communion unless they made a public statement denouncing abortion or other sins of which they had promoted in the past. The Bishop of St. Louis, Lincoln (NE.), and Colorado Springs were a few of the outspoken Bishops that ordered priest within their diocese not to administer communion to Kerry when he was on the campaign trail. You must understand that the Vatican can't go running around the world making sure Catholics who are not worthy of receiving communion are not taking communion. This responsibility is left up to that individual Catholic and the parish Priest. During the 2004 presidential election there was a news story on the Catholic Church that John Kerry attended in Boston, and it even gave the name of the pastor who would give Kerry communion. I wrote the pastor and informed him of what the Vatican teaches on such issues. Needless to say I never received a response.

[st. Worm]

Pax,

About all I can say is that is spite of your wishes to the contrary Kennedy is still in good standing as a RC and receives Communion. The priest who offers that to him is obviously aware of his unrepentant transgressions and therefore he should be a subject of discipline himself. Although Luther did not specifically list church discipline as one of the marks of a true church Calvin did and I think there is good reason for doing so.

SW

[Pax]

Pax,

About all I can say is that is spite of your wishes to the contrary Kennedy is still in good standing as a RC and receives Communion. The priest who offers that to him is obviously aware of his unrepentant transgressions and therefore he should be a subject of discipline himself. Although Luther did not specifically list church discipline as one of the marks of a true church Calvin did and I think there is good reason for doing so.

SW

Sorry SW, but Kennedy is not in good standing with the Catholic Church. I agree with you that the Priest who is offerring Kennedy communion should be talked to by the Bishop. But you must remember that the Church is made up of sinners and for what ever the reason this hasn't taken place. You must also take into consideration the amount of power the Kennedy's have around Boston. Although the priest would be doing the right thing for not allowing Kennedy communion he would pay a huge price. So there is much pressure on this priest. So let me turn the tables on you. Are you telling me that not one Lutheran has ever taken communion that wasn't worthy of receiving communion?

[st. Worm]

'Are you telling me that not one Lutheran has ever taken communion that wasn't worthy of receiving communion?"

Millions of us Lutherans receive communion each week and are completely unworthy. The difference between us and Kennedy is that we admit it. Such acknowledgement helps define the truly worthy communicant in the Lutheran Confessions

[Pax]

'Are you telling me that not one Lutheran has ever taken communion that wasn't worthy of receiving communion?"

Millions of us Lutherans receive communion each week and are completely unworthy. The difference between us and Kennedy is that we admit it. Such acknowledgement helps define the truly worthy communicant in the Lutheran Confessions

SW,

If you ever get a chance, attend a Catholic Mass. You might be surprised for every Catholic says "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only the word and I shall be healed," during the Eucharistic Prayers. At this time we are forgiven of our venial sins. If a Catholic has a mortal sin on their conscience, they must first go to confession before receiving communion or else they are unworthy of receiving the Eucharist. So SW Catholics also admit that they are unworthy to receive the Eucharist. Are you telling me that Lutherans don't label sins as venial or mortal. In other words if I am a Lutheran and kill a person I can receive communion just like the Lutheran who used the Lords name in vain without a process of rectifing the situation with God????

[st. Worm]

Pax,

Are you saying the confession suddenly makes a sinner worthy of partaking? We are unworthy of such a precious gift even beyond the act of sinning itself. While it may please God to forgive us our sins following our confession and repentance it in no way makes us any more worthy. I think in the particular situation you describe it would be important for the "murderer" to discuss with the pastor before partaking.

To be honest I can't recall any distinction with regard to mortal and venial sins in the context of communion and how the worthy communicant is defined in the Solid Declaration. Frankly, at least in the Lutheran world, the fact that you do not murder does not qualify you for the worthy communicant. Nor do your best good works bring you any closer to achieving that. Communion is for the worst of sinners but more importantly for those who realize what they are and who need forgiveness and strengthening of faith through this blessed Sacrament. I left behind the idea that I can somehow "clean myself up" for Communion with self preparation when I left the evangelical world. I think in some ways RC's and evangelicals have more in common than you may know.

Blessings,

SW

Edited January 17, 2006 by st. Worm