Satan

[Guest Biblicist]

Now let's talk about free will, which literally means you can do as you like.

Proverbs

16:1 We can gather our thoughts, but the LORD gives the right answer.

16:7 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

16:33 We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall.

19:21 You can make many plans, but the LORD's purpose will prevail.

20:24 How can we understand the road we travel? It is the LORD who directs our steps.

21:30 Human plans, no matter how wise or well advised, cannot stand against the LORD.

Psalm 37:23-24 The steps of the godly are directed by the LORD

He delights in every detail of their lives.

Though they stumble, they will not fall.

for the LORD holds them by the hand.

[Guest Biblicist]

Proverbs

16:1 We can gather our thoughts, but the LORD gives the right answer.

16:7 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

16:33 We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall.

19:21 You can make many plans, but the LORD's purpose will prevail.

20:24 How can we understand the road we travel? It is the LORD who directs our steps.

21:30 Human plans, no matter how wise or well advised, cannot stand against the LORD.

Psalm 37:23-24 The steps of the godly are directed by the LORD

He delights in every detail of their lives.

Though they stumble, they will not fall.

for the LORD holds them by the hand.

I would ask, what Bible version are you using? Because the KJV, some of those verses from proverbs aren't even close to what you posted.

I have not used the King James translation of the Bible for about 10 years. I have one, cross reference to it occasionally, but I do not use it on a daily basis.

Are you going to squabble with me over mere words? The words may not be exactly the same but the meaning is. God is in control!

I suggest you read the apologetics forum topic "free will", but I'll ask the question again here.

I have studied free will, The Bible, has a great deal of information about it, and there is a great course on Bible.org that covers the topic. I do not believe it is something that anyone can ever fully understand.

If a person secretly implants a chip in another person's brain, and then uses a remote control to force that person to muder someone, who is guilty? The person with the chip in their head? or the person holding the remote? Think about it, you are on a jury, and the time comes to pass your verdict. Who is guilty?

Short answer? Both are guilty, for both are human worthy of the same punishment and forgiveness. [You would not want me on a jury] The issue here is about God controlling man, Creator controlling creation, not human controlling human.

[Joshua-777]

Some things we will never know until the end, on that glorious day when we see Jesus face to face, I have asked this questiona nd been faced with this question many times, there are many answers, but the main answer I can find is cause God did, Satan feel out of pride, tried to overthrow God, and Tricked man into sin, God knew this was going to happen cause he knows all things, why didnt he stop it? we have free will, Satan had limited free will, to chose himself, Or God, but that one choice meant eternity no turning back. So, why did he? Cause he did, who am I to question God, I have faith that his reasons are more meaningful than any meaning we can find, hey we chose to love God out of free will, is there free will without an opposing side? Someone once said to me, You never fully apreciate the warmth until you felt the cold.

[Guest Biblicist]

Some things we will never know until the end, on that glorious day when we see Jesus face to face, I have asked this questiona nd been faced with this question many times, there are many answers, but the main answer I can find is cause God did, Satan feel out of pride, tried to overthrow God, and Tricked man into sin, God knew this was going to happen cause he knows all things, why didnt he stop it? we have free will, Satan had limited free will, to chose himself, Or God, but that one choice meant eternity no turning back. So, why did he? Cause he did, who am I to question God, I have faith that his reasons are more meaningful than any meaning we can find, hey we chose to love God out of free will, is there free will without an opposing side? Someone once said to me, You never fully apreciate the warmth until you felt the cold.

Amen, Josh, well spoken.

[heartofstone]

Some things we will never know until the end, on that glorious day when we see Jesus face to face, I have asked this questiona nd been faced with this question many times, there are many answers, but the main answer I can find is cause God did, Satan feel out of pride, tried to overthrow God, and Tricked man into sin, God knew this was going to happen cause he knows all things, why didnt he stop it? we have free will, Satan had limited free will, to chose himself, Or God, but that one choice meant eternity no turning back. So, why did he? Cause he did, who am I to question God, I have faith that his reasons are more meaningful than any meaning we can find, hey we chose to love God out of free will, is there free will without an opposing side? Someone once said to me, You never fully apreciate the warmth until you felt the cold.

I was thinking about this very thing for some reason before I came to this thread, or before I signed on I was actually thinking about this subject, so it's interesting to read your comment now. I dont know what that says about us though, that if God gave us a choice to follow Him or not (no matter that we'd then be choosing to follow Satan), instead of just having a reason to say no to God (who can imagine why we'd ever refuse Him, knowing even the slightest about Him as we do now?) we'd have to ask Him for more time to consider all of our options, 'cause we'd like to hear from the other side and see what they offer to? Just like a business man. It's the more puzzling thing to me, as I see the situation, why Satan ever chose to leave God and Heaven. Surely though, that by the time Satan had begun actually carrying his rebellion out, like attacking the other angels 'cause the Bible said there was the war, he probably though he'd win or why else go through with it, but maybe he was crazy enough to actually think that first, he was good enough to take God's place, or even better, and second that he did it when he was in the midst of real paradise. I mean, what's Eden compared to Heaven? We'll never know sure, but at least the angels were in the same realm as God, who knows how many times in a day there he actually got to see God? that alone is incredible. but in that perfect world, insurrection found a seed... that seems impossible. It's easy now (maybe now that Satan is here and active) to rebel against our God everyday, but it's hard to imagine why someone who should have had everything would ever choose to attack the One who gave all that to Him, but maybe that is how Satan was more like humans--wanting and having lots but what wealth, etc one already has is never enough? And there have been some humans who thought themselves very powerful but they can't even really create, have no real powers of their own and even with Satan who knew God and lived in heaven, it's hard to imagine how he ever thought himself better than God in the way that he did. I guess that should be scary for us too, since that's kind of what we do when we rebel and try to do things on our own, in our own ways, even when we're saved.

But point is, I go with some others here who have said the same thing, I dont think it's right to treat angels as being less than humans in the first place, 'cause they aren't. I mean, we may have the choice/chance now that we're here to be called the children of God, but the angels aren't beneath us even though the ones serving satan can't be redeemed as we can. Didn't it say somewhere in the Bible that when God sent Jesus down here to earth that He was made a little lower than the angels? even if that was figurative of Jesus, it should show what kind of place we're in. But I can't see either how the angels wouldn't have had free will either. It's not that God had to fear any rebelling against Him. He doesn't even need us. It says so in the Bible, at least in some way, that without angels or humans, God could have lived through the milenia content with Himself and just as happy. So even a few angels could actually be put down rather easily. And He doesn't even need to allow us to have free will just because it makes Him look bad if He doesn't and instead makes us robotic, not able to choose something else over Him. He did it out of love, just because He'd also rather have us Choose Him, that means something too, you know? And that goes back to why I think Satan's deal was so bad, on many levels it was of course, but Satan had everything, and even though at the time there must have been no threat of the angels going to any place as horrible as hell, Satan still made the choice to go against God, and thus evil was spawned. We're born into a war, a fight for our souls if you will, and it wasnt like that for Satan. I think he had as much right to choose who he wanted as we do, only now he's going to try and steal that from us just to have as many go down with him as possible, and to take those of us away from God that he can. I would say that having here made me angry at times, but I wouldn't in the end dare challenge God on that. Because, in part, it's not like we're entirely helpless, we have a choice and way out now, with Jesus. He's our protection against the evil here that would ensnsare us. But it's not like another created being is someone that any of we other created beings ever have the right to resent either. We can't question God for what He does just like it's not our right to question why any other person should be here. Yes, Satan has harmed us, really messed humanity's chances up, but in the beginning of his existence, as has been said, he was just as "good" as Michael was, right? I like to believe also that God always knew Satan would do that, even though Satan had free will, I think God just knew Satan would choose wrongly. Just in the way that we sometimes think we or others can be predictable, I think God really did know.

Heh, I don't think this was a bad question. I had wondered about Eden, probably like everyone else, if Adam and Eve hadn't disobeyed, then ever after, wouldnt every human that came out of that union, if that had been God's plan, also be tested as they were?

[eric]

Heartofstone, you leave me speechless and confused..... The opening question was , Why was satan created? Well the answer is in revelation.4:11 You are worthy. our Lord and God, to receive the glory and honour and the power, for You have created all things and because of Your will they were and have been created.

You will have to wait and if you endure to the end, you will have the opportunity to ask God Himself and we will all be able to quit speculation.

God created satan for His own pleasure.

[Guest pixy]

One of my friends posted a similar question on her private blog. Here is part of my answer to her question, which is somewhat appropriate to your question.

"As for how sin got started... God created us with free will and He created spiritual beings such as Satan as well. God could have created muses, but He chose a redemptive design instead. Although I won't pretend to understand the mind of God, I believe there is a lot of value in experiencing God in an environment of contrast. Without sin, there would have been no need for Jesus to lay down His life for us, to exhibit His power by overcoming sin, and to resurrect and thereby give us new life. Could the character of God have been understood by mankind in a different context, without God having created us as entirely different beings?"

I had a really good line of thought going that I was going to add to that, but I just totally lost my train of thought. I'll be back later if I think of it :-)

Edited November 23, 2006 by pixy

[eric]

Hi, Pixy, welcome to worthyland. I just checked out your profile. Wow you are a very busy young lady. Thanks also for your input. This particular thread is pretty ongoing with a multitude of opinions. Still if you dont ask any questions you wont get many answers. I hope you do recall that which has slipped your mind and I hope you do post it.

[EricH]

For God's glory

[Floatingaxe]

For God's glory

Exactly! I am sure Lucifer did a good job for some eons, until his pride of his own glory got in the way.