Paul's Christianity

[Guest Timbo]

I know this is a bit off subject, but I am curious. What exactly do Jehovah Witnesses believe that is different from Christianity? Why are you labeled a nonbeliever?

Hi systemstrike 7,

I am labeled a nonbeliever because of not supporting the Athanasian Creed, the doctrine of the trinity, that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are part of a Godhead. This doctrine has been the mainstay of the churches for over 1600 years. Yet the Bible does not support it.

Timbo, then how do you explain the others that are here who do not believe in the triune nature of God but yet are left classified as believers? How about the Oneness Pentecostals? They are NOT labeled as unbelievers. They do not subscribe to our Statement of Faith but yet, they are received as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Have you misled systemestrike a little here?

Let's be clear...

Do you believe Jesus Christ to be God, the Creator and great I AM? If not, that is why you have been labeled as an unbeliever. If so, then why did the Jehovah Witnesses feel the need to change the first chapter of the Gospel of John? If you say you do, then you should consider breaking ties since the JW doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ was not God, the great I AM.

Friend, you are loved by God and us. You are not looked down upon. BUT making a statement that the Bible does not support Christ's claims to be God are not true... at least in the Bible I read.

No debate here. There are other threads to debate all these doctrinal differences. Just setting the record staight (and clear) as to why our JW friends are considered "unbelievers".

Oh...and yes. We are to be like the Bereans. ...who listened to what was taught them BUT tested everything they were told against Scripture as the Holy Spirit gives understanding.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

wayne

Hi Wayne B.

I did not label myself as an "unbeliever", but rather the forum did, specifically the moderator Dave. Too, I hope in no way I have mislead systemstrike. Rather, I wish to present the facts in such a way that all can grasp accurately the meaning of the Bible. And no, I do not believe Jesus to be God, for the Bible does not support this, despite that the majority of churches accept the Trinity. Jesus is a god, a diety, but not God Almighty.

Concerning Jehovah's Witnesses feeling the "need to change the first chapter of Gospel of John", in digging deeper into the original Greek, it was found that John 1:1 does not say that "the Word was God", as so many Bibles have rendered it. The original Greek says: "En arche en ho Logos, kai ho Logos en pros tonTheon, kai theos en ho Logos." This literally means "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and god was the Word". The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, the interlinear reading says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word". Thus, this interlinear reading says that the "Word" was "a god". This was written in Koine Greek and the first mention of "god" in this verse is preceeded by the Greek definite article ton, which literally means "the". Koine, or common Greek, had no indefinite article,(corresponding to

[ParanoidAndroid]

Having not read through all 23 pages of this thread, if I repeat something already mentioned, my apologies.

I think it has been mentioned, but the purpose Paul wrote for was to show others how to live for Christ. Paper/parchment wasn't exactly an easily accessible commodoty back in thoe days. If someone wrote something, it had a purpose. It is well known that Paul did not meet Jesus in real life. He knew little of the life and works of Jesus. All he knew was that this strange cult had sprung up and he, being a Jewish authority, was charged with eradicating this cult. Which he did with zealous fervor.

Known as Saul at the time, Saul persecuted the Christians wherever he found them. It wasn't until a strange event on the road to Damascus that things changed. Saul supposedly met Jesus in a vision, and then over the next three years received visions by which to teach Christian living.

And here Saul converts to Christianity - once the zealous force behind the persecution of Christianity, now the face of preaching the gospel of Jesus.

So why would Paul write about the events of Jesus' life? His focus was on preaching the good news of Christ. And that news is that Jesus died for our sins, and rose again to eternal life, so that we could have eternal life. Whether Jesus turned water to wine, or whether he raised Lazarus from the dead, or whether he walked on water, were for Paul, quite frankly, irrelevant.

[roselady]

Hon,

Paul was chosen to take the place of one of Judas. He also was also visited by Jesus several times, and caught up in heaven. He did not witness the crucifiction, but he did withness other things that are a part of the Word.

After reading much of Paul's insertions into the New Testament, I can't seem to find any mention of Jesus' earthly ministry.

No virgin birth

No visit of magi

No slaughter of innocents

No flight into Egypt

No Jesus in the Temple at age twelve

No Baptism of Jesus

No Wedding Feast

No Christ walking on water

No Raising of Lazerus

No Transfiguration

No entering into Jerusalem

No Last Supper

No Jewish Court hearing

No Pilate court hearing

No flogging

No Jesus carrying the cross

All Paul knows about is Jesus' death on a cross, resurrection from tomb, and his ascension into heaven.

These three attribute accredited to Christ by Paul, the earliest Christian writer, were also accredited to many other pagan savior gods before Jesus. Paul never quotes anything from any gospel, mainly because Paul wrote before the gospels were written, and apparently hadn't been told about Jesus' earthly ministry. When he speaks of the death, resurrection, and ascension, he talks on a MYTHICAL realm. Just like the pagan saviors.

Hebrews 8:4

"If Jesus had been on earth, he would not even have been a priest."

Jesus lived in the years of 0 A.D. to 33 A.D.(roughly) and Mark was written sometime after 70 A.D. Paul wrote in between these dates. He is the link. And from what I can see, he was unaware of the fact that Jesus was actually on earth.

It is not surprising that Christians rarely speak of early Christianity. When you assemble the facts it comes out as so:

Jesus lived - EVERYONE FORGOT - they finally remembered.

Post your thoughts...

system

[ted]

J,

It looks like Roselady was responding to Systemstrike7's post. The list was not hers, but his, and she was responding to it.

t.

[Sconzy]

Well you studied Paul's epistles to find all that.... What else did you find out?

[Rhonda Lou]

I believe that Leonard was correct in the dating of the gospels. I've read the same evidence. You are correct that Paul does not mention much of Jesus' life in his epistles. Neither do Peter, John (after his gospel), or the author of Hebrews, if he is not Paul) James or Jude. I believe that God inspired the Scriptures, from the books that were written, to the order those books are in, to which ones are included in the Bible, to the translations, to the fact that now, with so many translations, we have the Dead Sea Scrolls AND Hebrew and Greek dictionaries available to check for accuracy. God preserved His word. All of this is to say, that at the end of the final gospel, John writes, in Chapter 20-30-31"And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are now written in this book, but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." This, then, was the purpose for the gospels -- to tell Jesus' story, including His birth, death and Resurrection so that we might believe on Him. Acts tells the story of the beginning of the church, and the rest of the Bible is commentary on the story. Paul was commissioned thus by the Lord, as the Lord spoke to Ananias, and told Ananias the following: "But the Lord said to him, 'Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake." (Acts 9:15-16)

Paul took this to mean that He was to speak to Christ's death and Resurrection: "And I, brethren, when I cam to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-2) Philippians 3:8-14 is Paul's own goal in life, to know Jesus, and the power of His resurrections, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to his death." That is Paul's mission.

I don't know if this helps you understand what we believe better or not, but most epistles were written for a specific purpose. James said that faith without works was dead. The epistles of John wrote to try to prove that Jesus was flesh AND God. Peter wrote to help those persecuted Christians have hope. Hebrews was written to stop Judaizers (legalistic Jews). Jude was written to stop false teachers. All of these took the stories of Jesus' life for granted, and wrote as though everybody knew of Jesus life and ministry, but not always the purpose behind it.

I hope that explains it a little better.

Rhonda Lou