The Trinity

[Vickilynn]

Sorry, I didn't get to read the other replies because my son just woke up and I have to go up and get him, but I just wanted to add my two cents worth in if you don't mind.

I always thought God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were seperate and one at the same time, kind of like how my son and I are seperate and one. We are one because he came from me and he is a part of me (he was made from a combination of MY egg which is a part of MY body, and df's sperm which is a part of his body), but we are seperate because we are two different people.

Jesus made it clear that he is not equal to God, so he can't possibly BE God, but I believe he can be a part of God because he was made from God.

But, even that brings on a question from me. If what I think is true (I'm not saying it is) how does that work? EVERYTHING was made by God, so wouldn't that mean that EVERYTHING is a part of God as well, not just Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Sorry, I guess this reply isn't that informative. I am questioning a lot of my own beliefs right now since I have started to seriously study the bible...but i do know that I have been told by a few people that there is no mention whatsoever of the Holy Trinity in the bible.

ETA: (DS is down for a nap again so I'm back) I know Jesus said somewhere in the bible that he is not equal to God, but this one scripture has me confused: John 1:1 "Before the world was created the Word already existed: he was with God, and he was the same as God..." From what I understand here, 'the Word' is in reference to Jesus, so here they are saying that the Word (Jesus) is the same as God...so wouldn't that mean he is equal to God? There are other scriptures, though, that say that Jesus is not equal to God. For example Matthew 12:15 "When Jesus heard about the plot against him, he went away from that place; and large crowds followed him. He healed all those who were ill 16 and gave them orders not to tell others about him. 17 He did this so as to make what God had said through the prophet Isaiah come true: 18 "Here is my servant, whom I have chosen,..."' So, from what I understand from that scripture, Jesus is being referred to as God's servent, therefore meaning that he is not equal to God. Also John 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; I judge only as God tells me, so my judgement is right, because I am not trying to do what I want, but only what he who sent me wants." so - to me - that means Jesus is saying he cannot judge on his own authority, but God can judge on his own authority, so I don't see how the two could be completely equal if God has the authority to judge and Jesus doesn't have the authority to judge...the only way Jesus can get authority to judge is through God's authority.

Shalom Babylove,

Jesus IS G-d, as the Father is G-d and Holy Spirit is G-d.

G-d is a word for the Tri-Unity of the Three Persons of G-d.

Each has their role and function, but each are equally G-d, each Deity.

[Neopatriarch]

I noticed discussion in the thread on Jesus' divinity as expressed in his statement the before Moses was "I am" that some believers do not accept the belief in the Trinity as one being but view it as three separate beings or manifestations of God. I am aware that the LDS and JW hold the latter view. Are there other churchs (i'm particularly interested in any "mainstream" protestants) that do not believe in the concept of the Trinity as one God?

The United Pentecostal Church denies the Trinity. Their view called "Oneness" is a brand of modalistic monarchianism. They deny that God is three persons.

Of course, I believe in the Trinity. God is three persons. But I wonder sometimes if it's also okay to think of God as one Person.

-Neopatriarch

[Vickilynn]

The United Pentecostal Church denies the Trinity. Their view called "Oneness" is a brand of modalistic monarchianism. They deny that God is three persons.

Of course, I believe in the Trinity. God is three persons. But I wonder sometimes if it's also okay to think of God as one Person.

-Neopatriarch

Shalom Neo,

Wow, what a cool question. I mean, the term {Elohim} which is a plural name for G-d would lead me to consider them an "US" and thus one entity (the G-dHead), but not one Person.

The word Elohim is the plural of El (or possibly of Eloah) and is the first name for God given in the Tanakh:

[jewelz123]

I noticed discussion in the thread on Jesus' divinity as expressed in his statement the before Moses was "I am" that some believers do not accept the belief in the Trinity as one being but view it as three separate beings or manifestations of God. I am aware that the LDS and JW hold the latter view. Are there other churchs (i'm particularly interested in any "mainstream" protestants) that do not believe in the concept of the Trinity as one God?

The United Pentecostal Church denies the Trinity. Their view called "Oneness" is a brand of modalistic monarchianism. They deny that God is three persons.

Of course, I believe in the Trinity. God is three persons. But I wonder sometimes if it's also okay to think of God as one Person.

-Neopatriarch

Divisions over human understanding of God and the Trinity are truly pointless. We divide over how we comprehend the incomprehensible? God the infinite gave us His word to describe Himself to us in our very limited language. We must always keep that in mind when we allow ourselves to get bogged down by details we cannot answer.

Yes, you can think of God as one person, it doesn't matter - just think of Him with all your heart and all your mind!

I think of the trinity this way - Genesis 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness" - we are one person, however, we are body, mind and spirit. Without one of those, we can not live - all three work together to create our whole. I understand this as the image in which we were created - not our physical appearance.

[other one]

'Mutzrein' date='Apr 18 2007, 05:24 AM' post='833517'] [

And again this spells out the right perspective on their relationship. Jesus is Lord and His father is God.

Mutzrein, I can go along with much of your thoughts....... a little something to ponder:

This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity.

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank. [/]

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. [/]

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.[/]

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.[/]

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB[/]

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/]

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; [/]

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"[/]

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.[/]

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

[/]

We have one God

[Mutzrein]

I noticed discussion in the thread on Jesus' divinity as expressed in his statement the before Moses was "I am" that some believers do not accept the belief in the Trinity as one being but view it as three separate beings or manifestations of God. I am aware that the LDS and JW hold the latter view. Are there other churchs (i'm particularly interested in any "mainstream" protestants) that do not believe in the concept of the Trinity as one God?

The United Pentecostal Church denies the Trinity. Their view called "Oneness" is a brand of modalistic monarchianism. They deny that God is three persons.

Of course, I believe in the Trinity. God is three persons. But I wonder sometimes if it's also okay to think of God as one Person.

-Neopatriarch

Divisions over human understanding of God and the Trinity are truly pointless. We divide over how we comprehend the incomprehensible? God the infinite gave us His word to describe Himself to us in our very limited language. We must always keep that in mind when we allow ourselves to get bogged down by details we cannot answer.

Yes, you can think of God as one person, it doesn't matter - just think of Him with all your heart and all your mind!

I think of the trinity this way - Genesis 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness" - we are one person, however, we are body, mind and spirit. Without one of those, we can not live - all three work together to create our whole. I understand this as the image in which we were created - not our physical appearance.

Division purely over a human understanding of God is pointless.

However, there are those who say that unless one accepts the trinity, they cannot be saved. Now to me, this goes deeper than differences in our understanding. Because what this does is to usurp what scripture proclaims about our salvation. Salvation is based on faith. We are made righteous by faith in Christ - not on an acceptance of a doctrine.

[CaritateDei]

I do agree that God is Father-Son-Holy Spirit. But some people teach that they are totally separate and apart. That the Father is God but is not the Son, that the Son is God but is not the Father and so on. I am aware that this is the view of the LDS and JW. But i just wondered if there are other religions out there that fall under the Chrisitanity umbrella and hold in the 3 separate beings theology.

That's not the LDS and JW, that is Christianity.

Three Divine persons in one God.

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit is not the Father is not the Holy Spirit is not the Son is not the Father.

I'm a nerd.

[firehill]

'Mutzrein' date='Apr 18 2007, 05:24 AM' post='833517'] [

And again this spells out the right perspective on their relationship. Jesus is Lord and His father is God.

Mutzrein, I can go along with much of your thoughts....... a little something to ponder:

This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity.

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank. [/]

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. [/]

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.[/]

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.[/]

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB[/]

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/]

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; [/]

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"[/]

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.[/]

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

[/]

We have one God

[GeneV]

(other one @ May 16 2007, 08:03 PM)

And again this spells out the right perspective on their relationship. Jesus is Lord and His father is God.

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. [/]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.[/]

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.[/]

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB[/]

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/]

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; [/]

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"[/]

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

[1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.[/]

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

We have one God

[Vickilynn]

That's not the LDS and JW, that is Christianity.

Three Divine persons in one God.

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit is not the Father is not the Holy Spirit is not the Son is not the Father.

I'm a nerd.

Shalom CD,

Amen to the Tri-Unity post, I don't agree that you're a nerd.

A geek maybe, but certainly not a nerd!

Anyway, your post is right on!