Entertainment, An Evangelical Heresy

[Scarletprayers]

As it should be Marnie!

[Openly Curious]

So what ends up happening is that in order to keep the goats happy the church no longer feeds the sheep.

Then the sheep leave, and the church is spiritually emptier.

Yeah, I mean that's basically Paul's teaching to the Ephesians! It's not rocket science. It's interesting, I have only been saved a relatively short span of time compared to most of you, but coming in from the outside, what attracted me was the preaching of the Word because it met a need I had and continue to have. I don't think anybody is saying there should be no music or no movies or whatever in the church.

My pastor, I think, has struck a good balance in this area. We do things; like our world famous fellowship dinners, and chorale presentations for the edification of our church, not to get people into the church. Everything we do, with the exception of our evangelistic outreach programs, is for the spiritual growth of our members. In terms of how we bring new members in, it's simple. We go and get them, like we're supposed to do. We are have been taught to witness; how to share our faith, and it's been very effective. We have grown from about 35 when I first joined to well over 80 today. And we have a church full of sheep and very few goats. The goats come in, and if they don't like the sheep food they leave. We don't cater to them. We are not "seeker sensitive," we are Holy Ghost sensitive.

OC

[Wingwalker]

And that is what I like to hear Marnie

[methinkshe]

Dear Marnie,

Thank you for posting that. It has helped me to understand why I sometimes find worship so empty and emotionally charged as opposed to spiritually uplifting. Sometimes I long to sing again in church such hymns as "And can it be that I should gain an interest in the Saviour's blood," instead of the repetitive "I love you Jesus, you love me Lord, we all love one another," type of stuff, sung about 20 times until everyone is hypnotised and in a trance, or so it seems. I thought I was just being old fogeyish and have berated myself for being a bit of a stick-in-the-mud. Now I better understand why I am feeling that way.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

If there is something wrong in the church that you attend, look for another!

As I said in MY church, we use wonderful tools to bring people in and they get saved and then get fed on real meat, and then either serve in our church, or (as I forgot to mention ion my last post), they go out and start new churches or serve on the Mission field.

This sheep and goat stuff is ridiculous. What draws people in is the Holy Spirit. And, as I have posted elsewhere, He can use things such as Entertainment to do it. (Such as a Rock Opera). And if there is real meat from the Word, people will get fed and grow. In our worship we use a mixture of Contemporary songs and sometimes hymns.

We use MANY things that some of y'all would call Entertainment, but it ALL glorifies Jesus and it speaks the message without compromise, yet it speaks in a language and medium that people today can relate to.

If you don't like it, choose another church.

However, if G-d is using different means to save souls, feed His sheep and make disciples, then G-d is glorified, no matter what man may say. I don't much care for man's opinion when G-d's opinion is what matters. And what G-d uses, He uses. If some Christians don't like it, they can move someplace that doesn't use it, however, to condemn what G-d is using for His glory is wrong.

I'll take G-d's way over man's any day!

[methinkshe]

Shalom,

If there is something wrong in the church that you attend, look for another!

As I said in MY church, we use wonderful tools to bring people in and they get saved and then get fed on real meat, and then either serve in our church, or (as I forgot to mention ion my last post), they go out and start new churches or serve on the Mission field.

This sheep and goat stuff is ridiculous. What draws people in is the Holy Spirit. And, as I have posted elsewhere, He can use things such as Entertainment to do it. (Such as a Rock Opera). And if there is real meat from the Word, people will get fed and grow. In our worship we use a mixture of Contemporary songs and sometimes hymns.

We use MANY things that some of y'all would call Entertainment, but it ALL glorifies Jesus and it speaks the message without compromise, yet it speaks in a language and medium that people today can relate to.

If you don't like it, choose another church.

However, if G-d is using different means to save souls, feed His sheep and make disciples, then G-d is glorified, no matter what man may say. I don't much care for man's opinion when G-d's opinion is what matters. And what G-d uses, He uses. If some Christians don't like it, they can move someplace that doesn't use it, however, to condemn what G-d is using for His glory is wrong.

I'll take G-d's way over man's any day!

Dear Vickilynn,

May I just ask you to clarify? Is this a comment addressed to the OP (i.e. A.W. Tozer's teaching) or to subsequent post(s)? I find myself forever putting my foot in it because I have failed to understand a poster's intention.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Vickilynn]

Dear Vickilynn,

May I just ask you to clarify? Is this a comment addressed to the OP (i.e. A.W. Tozer's teaching) or to subsequent post(s)? I find myself forever putting my foot in it because I have failed to understand a poster's intention.

In Jesus,

Ruth

Shalom Ruth,

I'll be happy to clarify anything you have a question about. Ask me specific questions.

I'm speaking to it all in general.

Are you asking about my LAST comment, or something else in my post. You quoted the whole thing, so I don't know which you are asking about.

[Vickilynn]

The problem is Vickilynn, we are not talking about God's method of doing things here, but man's.

Shalom Butero,

No, that's not true.

If G-d is calling people to use certain methods and tools it's IS G-d's way.

Just because you personally don't like it, doesn't make it not of G-d.

Again, it's personal preference, and that does not speak to G-d's using of something.

God's method is the foolishness of preaching according to the Bible.

Yup, and G-d's WORD is preached, just in varied ways.

The Holy Spirit doesn't need gimicks to draw people.

G-d uses many tools to draw people. Call them what you want, if G-d uses it, it's HIS way.

That is something men use because it is easier than spending time praying for revival and trusting God to do the rest.

That is a false judgment. You don't know how many hours these people spend in prayer. It's an ignorant and arrogant and untrue generality and has no place in a mature G-dly discussion.

Having never been to your church, I am not going to make any judgements about it, and I do agree with what you said about having choices when it comes to the type of church we attend.

Yup! We had 7 people SAVED today in 4 services on TWO campuses. One was live, the other was live via video link. G-d's Word went out and did not return void. We used all sorts of technical tools as well as Contemporary music and older songs. The service is alive and led by the Holy Spirit and glorifies G-d. The results are souls SAVED and the sheep FED and most of all, Jesus lifted up! If someone doesn't like that, they can find a church that suits them better. But, don't dare call the things of G-d evil just because they are new and aren't "the way we've always done it." blah blah.

[Vickilynn]

Butero said:

That is something men use because it is easier than spending time praying for revival and trusting God to do the rest.

Vickilynn said:

That is a false judgment. You don't know how many hours these people spend in prayer. It's an ignorant and arrogant and untrue generality and has no place in a mature G-dly discussion.

Butero said:

You are making the assumption I am speaking about your church or someone you know, and that is not the case.

Shalom Butero,

No, you are wrong in this case Bro.

I am not making ANY assumption and I was not replying to your statement in the context of my church or anyone I know Your comment was a generalization. It not only is false, but it is ignorant of the facts as they pertain to individuals. Generalizations that cannot be supported are never welcome in any mature discussion. You don't know who IS or isn't praying and how much time they spend in prayer. So, your statement is a false assumption.

Butero said:

I was simply saying that churches often times use gimicks to bring people in because it is easier than seeking God for revival. That does take place, and there is nothing false in anything I said. I stated that having never been to your church, I am making no judgements about it.

You are mistaken again, sorry. I wasn't talking about my church, but your generalized criticism that has no factual support. Please read back to your statement. You did not say "some", or "oftentimes", or that you knew someone who did this, you said "

That is something men use because it is easier than spending time praying for revival and trusting God to do the rest.

That is a false assumption and generalization and not supported by any fact.

Butero said:

By the way, how do you know when something is God's methods or not?

Several ways, one the Holy Spirit leads, it is held up against the Bible, it is confirmed by G-dly counsel and then there are G-dly results.

Butero said:

There are people that claim God called them to do all sorts of things to reach the lost, and I am not convinced God was in it. For instance, I don't believe that it was right for a church to promise free beer to those who sat through their services. I just don't believe that was something God led them to do, but there is little doubt such things would draw a crowd.

That's just plain stupid. No, I don't agree that giving away free beer was something that G-d ordained. Because the Bible speaks of not getting drunk. It's not G-d to use things that the Bible condemns.

Butero said:

By the way, I am happy to hear that people were saved today.

Me too! It's awesome!! 7 new souls in the Kingdom!! Whoooo Hoooooooooooo!

ACK! I hate these quotey thangs!

[Openly Curious]

Give me that old time religion, give me that old time religion, give me that oooollllddddd tiiimmee reliiigiiooon it's good enough for me.

It was good for Paul and Silas it was good for Paul and Silas it was good for Paaauuul and Siilllass it's good enough for me.

It was good for the prophet Daniel it was good for the prophet Daniel it was goooood fooorrr tthee prooophet Daaannniiielll and it's good enough for me.

It was good for the three Hebrew children it was good for the three Hebrew children it waaasss ggooood ffoooor the thhrrreee Heeebreeewww children it's good enough for me.

OC